Turtler says:

Ah, it looks like Kevin has realized that their user name has gotten so toxic, so they’ve decided to use a different one. But manure by any other name would still be just as toxic.

Let’s go through this.

“Are you purposefully this obtuse?”

No, but as we will see you absolutely are.

Because you’re a dishonest totalitarian psychopath.

As we will see.

“1. Yes, the raid was warranted. It was warranted because after NARA discovered the documents were missing,”

AND THE NARA HAS NO LAW ENFORCEMENT POWER *FOR A REASON.*

Presidents and Former Presidents have VERY broad latitude regarding the documents they have possession of, and the NARA has been repeatedly crushed and put in its place legally when it has tried to claim it has greater authority than a President or Ex-President. Because the NARA does not classify documents, it does not dictate their use (certainly not to officials at this level), and it does not have final say over what can and can’t be done with them. It archives them, and even then its judgement is not unlimited. And it has been told this REPEATEDLY by courts and administrations on both sides of the political aisle.

But apparently we’re supposed to throw out the rule book because Trump.

“they contacted Trump to get them back.”

And as Trump and his lawyers doubtless pointed out, they had brought authority to decide what they gave back, and while they would cooperate to try and come to an equitable and reasonable conclusion, they would not bow down and worship at the Brass Bull of NARA and its grandiose sense of imaginary authority.

And for this they were smeared, raided, vilified, and lied about.

“And he drug his feet and fought with them for nearly a year, letting some go back, arguing over certain ones, etc. ”

*AS HE HAS EVERY SINGLE RIGHT TO DO AS A POTUS OR FURTHER POTUS!*

Indeed, in most cases he has FAR MORE AUTHORITY AND RIGHT TO JUDGE ABOUT THE USE OF THESE DOCUMENTS THAN NARA HAS.

“There is literally a record in public reporting documenting this after the story broke last year.”

There’s also literally a record of countless legal cases like this going back more than half a century, where NARA was explicitly told off for being grabby, power-mad, and violating the rights and interests of other stakeholders.

“And the documents were not secure.”

To which the response is that What Was the FBI and NARA doing, and why was this not made clear earlier?

Because unless you’d like me to believe that the NARA and FBI never, ever, ever set foot in Mar a Lago for the entire term of Trump’s Presidency – which is simply laughable – they should have quite clearly gone over these issues.

“If you think they were more secure than a garage, I have a bridge in New York I’d love to sell you.”

I not only think, I know. Because the NARA did not start lodging complaints about this until it became politically expedient to do so.

As for bridges in New York, you could not GIFT me a Bridge in New York City given the corruption and taxes involved there.

” He has a private club where all manner of people are in and out all the time, including one alleged Russian spy.”

Which is still far, far more secure than Harry Truman’s private residence was. Ditto most others.

You write this as if we should be SHOCKED, SHOCKED, SHOCKED, as if this issue has never, ever come up in the history of the Republic. When in reality it has been present and done with for decades. Which also underlines the corruption and politicization of this case. Especially in comparison to the likes of Sandy Berger and Obama.

“The FBI asked for a lock to be put on because there literally was nothing to secure it! ”

That was obviously untrue, given its placement in the complex and the presence of authorized-to-hold-classified-materials safe.

It’s also worth noting that if the classified documents REALLY WERE so unsecured, putting a lock on them is absolutely meaningless as far as the law and regulations go. A lock is absolutely not suitable nor acceptable to secure classified documents go. Which if true would point a star finger back at the FBI, NARA, and Secret Service.

The reality is that it was meaningless PR.

Much like Greco-Roman Prostitutes came to wearing literal fig leaves in order to skirt the law against pornography and stripping nude, the “put a lock on it” was a fig leaf by an utterly corrupt and unprofessional FBI hatchet team to look like they were doing something other than acting as what they were. It also isn’t very convincing.

“And as we learned later, some of the classified documents were floating around in Trump’s desk.”

WHICH HE HAD CLEARANCE TO HAVE DUE TO HIS ROLE AS PRESIDENT/EX-PRESIDENT.

AS HAS BEEN LITIGATED BEFORE.

” Trump also didn’t comply with a lawful subpoena to return them.”

Scum like you have some GALL blathering about “lawful subpoenas” in light of horrid abuses that we’ve seen. But in any case, Trump CORRECTLY held the view that he was a lawfully recognized stakeholder regarding the files and that he had great discretion about their fate, as well as a right to go over what can or should be returned.

The legal precedent makes it clear this position was in the right, as shown by the NARA’s long and ignominious history of overreach, abuse, and being slapped down for the aforementioned.

But apparently when it comes to Trump the normal legal precedent of balance of power and consideration for the President’s broad latitude regarding documents gets thrown out the window.

“So yes, the FBI was fully within their jurisdiction to go down there and get the documents.”

No, it was not, for the reasons I’ve mentioned. And especially it was not within their jurisdiction to lie about the nature of the search and to stonewall Trump’s legal representation. The hypocrisy and double standards with which they treated Biden committing a literally inexcusable breach of security is telling.

“They didn’t belong to Trump, they belong to the government.”

Sorry, but pretty much every President since Truman begs to differ. The Government as represented by the NARA is just one stakeholder in regards to the fate of the document, and it has repeatedly abused said stakeholder status to claim far more than it has any right to and has been slapped down in turn.

The NARA is not a dictatorship. It does not get to unilaterally dictate what a former President can do with documents within their purview. This has been established many times over.

“As for Biden, yes it looks bad.”

IT DOES NOT MERELY *LOOK* BAD, IT IS BAD YOU SIMPERING SCUMBAG.

Biden was Vice-President. The Vice President has infinitely less classification power than the President does. As such he had no right to be in possession of the majority of those documents, and certainly not in the unsecured manner they were in.

And yet he was treated with kid gloves by the partisan goons in the NARA and FBI. I wonder why?

“But at least he gave them back”

So what?

What is important is – as the courts have painstakingly told the NARA many times before – not whether the documents are given back but what the grounds were for possession in the first place and how they were secured.

Biden had no right to have those, and the sheer quantity and longevity of said violations is circumstantial evidence of Mens Rea.

Moreover, as again Truman pointed out, ex-Presidents have broad latitude when it comes to deciding what documents to maintain.

“and his lawyers voluntarily looked for more.”

As did Trump’s.

But of course, you don’t want to highlight that because it undermines your case.

“At least he wasn’t subpoenaed.”

Oh lo, as if that should matter!!!

Newsflash you simpering scumbag; Subpoenas are legal documents and orders like any other. They are not the divine orders of an absolute and just Abrahamic God who you probably don’t believe in anyway (meaning this is doubly so). You have the right to contest subpoenas legally and try to have them quashed.

ESPECIALLY when it comes to ones issued on such suspect grounds as the NARA picking a fight with yet another ex-President and overreaching its documentation and archival authority.

“Intent is the issue here and for Trump, it looks like his intent was to keep things that didn’t belong to him.”

The fact that you think intent matters in this case speaks to the staggering legal illiteracy you have

Let me make this very clear. In classified document law, intent matters either “very little” or “nothing.” What matters is who has clearance to possess it, and under what circumstances. This is why those of us who knew laughed at Comey’s lies about “intent” in regards to Clincon.

Let me make this further clear:

THE NARA IS NOT DICTATOR WHEN IT COMES TO GOVERNMENT DOCUMENTS.

ESPECIALLY IN REGARDS TO THOSE OF A PRESIDENT OR EX-PRESIDENT.

“But nuance obviously isn’t your strong suit…”

This is rich coming from you.

There’s rather little “nuance” to be found here, and most of what can be does not help your case.

“2. Oh yes the “let’s make a conspiracy to distract from actual crimes” trope again! How novel.”

This is rich considering you are the idiot quite literally spinning a conspiracy theory to try and deprive an Ex-President of their very well defined rights and privileges’ regarding documents on behalf of the disreputable goons in the NARA.

“3. Honestly, this has to be the dumbest part of this whole blog post. There is a process for declassifying classified documents. ”

The fact that you think this is the dumbest speaks to your ignorance.

There are in fact multiple processes for declassifying classified documents. And the President has great prerogatives over many of them.

Which is why the entire leftist shtick about whether or not one could keep classified information from the President was always incredibly dumb. The President is an elected representative of the Public and in charge of the executive branch, meaning he has functionally unlimited power over classification and declassification.

“As in, if they were truly declassified they would be labeled as such.”

That’s not how it works. Especially when you realize that he didn’t magically lose all his rights when he became a former President rather than the sitting one. The Supreme Court itself had to shove a boot up NARA’s ass about this exact issue.

“Trump is not a wizard. He can’t magically think that something is declassified and poof! It happens. ”

Actually, according to legal precedent Ex-Presidents can.

“So no, no matter how much you try and spin it, they were not declassified and we have been told that. ”

I’m sorry, but no matter how you try and spin things Presidential declassification will always be a thorny issue in which the President’s judgement will be granted extensive leeway. Precedent upholds this.

The idea that you can pull the “But Trump!” Card shows it.

“Oh and again, that Biden issue with how far back the documents go is bad. See, it is possible to see nuance!”

No, it’s not just with how far back the documents go. It’s also a host of other things.

And nuance?

You or someone suspiciously like you keeps blathering about how Republicans are Fascist Racist Homophobes, and you are wantonly ignoring decades of well established legal precedent regarding the limits of NARA’s authority and what a subpoena is and is not.

“4. While I won’t say NARA is run by morons. ”

I would rather have NARA be run by Morons than what it actually is run by, given their long and ugly track record of abuses of power and bullying.

“There are obviously boulder sized holes in the recording system. Considering how outdated technology is in other government entities, I wouldn’t be surprised if they’re running off some sort of card catalog system or something crazy like that.”

Which makes it all the more important to mind legal precedent, ESPECIALLY regarding ex-Presidents – important.

“Obviously the whole process needs to be overhauled. Hopefully that happens as a result of this. It’s the very least that should be done.”

It probably won’t be overhauled, in large part because an actual overhaul would probably limited NARA’s power more seriously than half a century of adverse legal judgements have. And they don’t want that. When your power lies on counting the metaphorical “votes” – or documents as it may be – you do not have much interest in reforms that will limit your ability to do so.

“To put a finer point on this, what Biden, Pence and Carter did was the equivalent of finding an unreturned library book and returning it. Biden and Pence will likely have to make some sort of recompense, much like you or I would pay a fine.”

The fact that you are so fucking stupid that you think this is an appropriate comparison underlines how wrong you are.

No, it isn’t “finding an unreturned library book and returning it.”

What Trump did is CLOSER to the equivalent of a Head of a Library retiring and either taking some books with them or keeping them there… except the system is such that this is considered normal and former Library Heads are encouraged to use the documents they have in writing their memoirs and other matters.

What Biden and Pence specifically did is closer to being found that the Summer Hire you brought on to man the kid’s counter went off with accounting documents they had no right to possess. The fact that one of them has since become Library Head does not exonerate the fact that they walked off without clearance.

“But what Trump did was like carrying a giant pile of materials out of a library without checking them out and then refusing to return them when asked.”

…. in a system where the Library Head and Retired Library Heads are allowed to do that and in fact are encouraged to do so on occasion, and whose right to do so has been upheld in court many, many times over due to their role as stakeholders in it.

The fact that you think mere volume makes this bad speaks to your biases and failure to comprehend anything about classification, even in comparison to my noob.

” And while public librarians rarely send law enforcement after people, when the thief has stonewalled and not given everything back when asked, and given the nature of these particular items, it makes sense to send law enforcement in. ”

Again chowderhead, Public Librarians do not have decades of being told to shut up and stop abusing their former heads by the Supreme Court. Public Librarians are not dictators with unlimited power over their books. And they certainly do not have the power to send the FBI or SWAT to kick in the door sight unseen without opposing legal representation to carry out an open ended search.

Neither does the NARA. Which is also why it has no legal enforcement power. And why in spite of this it has been told many times over it has a track record of abusing former RPers.

“And of the now four former presidents and vice presidents it would make perfect sense if Trump is charged with a crime. See the difference?”

You obviously don’t, because you would find it inconvenient to do so. Because the law underlines your stance and supports Trump’s.