I wondered if this would happen and it did. The Tucson Memorial for the victims of Saturday’s massacre turned into the first Obama campaign rally of the 2012 election cycle. From WH operatives passing out t-shirts with Obama’s new campaign theme, ‘Together We Thrive,’ to logo-clad seats mourners would sit in during the service, the only thing missing from this Pep Rally was some Hollywood celebutards fawning over His Hipness!
The crowd was cheering and stomping and wildly excited; not exactly mourners honoring the dead. There was an Indian prayer at the beginning (Tucson has a large native population) which received a huge roar from the crowd reminding me of rock concerts I’ve attended. I don’t remember seeing any Christian ministers present on the platform.
This event reminded me of the Senator Paul Wellstone infamous Memorial in Minnesota during which Democrat operatives turned that event into a partisan political propaganda opportunity.
Was that spectacle Memorial suppose to have helped to heal a broken-hearted nation? Or help to bind the wounds of the families? It’s hard for me to put into words, but I know if one of my family members had died in the Tucson mass shooting, I would have been thoroughly and completely disgusted.
Reiah says: It doesn’t surprise me that a knuckle-dragging Palin lover wouldn’t like the service. But here’s some info for you everyone else (other then you knuckle-draggers) on the planet did! Not only were the families and friends uplifted, the President was able to show real leadership. Whiner.
Marsha says: Hey Reiah that was the most disgusting display I’ve ever seen. People are dead. Families are grieving. Peoples lives are shattered and he’s passing campaign shirts. You get real now about Mr. Me, Me, Me or you are going to be in a sad state in 2012.
Bill Gholson says: You must have a very cold and ideological heart not to give up your blather in order to let the nation grieve. I would agree that the audience was not civil. They could have been at a basketball game, but that is not the fault of the speakers.
Karen says: It’s hard to believe that anyone could take that memorial as a campaign rally. This country is great need of repair because of ignorant people who have not got a clue about how their negativity and bigotry effects the young people and there couldn’t have been a better time to attempt to bring some sanity to the ignorance that exists in this country. Gabby will be proud very proud to hear what was said and the others were greatly memorialized. Shame on anyone who could think that this was political as much as what was said about coming together at a time like this!
How disappointing. I hope you’ll rethink this post, Kate.
I’m ready for civil discourse. I will no longer use the term “tea-bagger” to describe people with whom I disagree politically.
The President said not one single thing with which any good-hearted American could find fault. Was it not so?
Come on, Kate. Let’s all work together.
Ken says: “Shame on anyone who could think that this was political as much as what was said about coming together at a time like this!”
Right, Karen. Because handing out T shirts and branding a “motto” to a memorial service is oh so common:
“President Obama used to preach that there was no “Red America” and no “Blue “America,” just one America.
But tonight at the memorial for the Tucson massacre victims, it will be a sea of blue as the White House unveils the “Together We Thrive” logo and slogan.
Yes, the Tucson massacre is being branded:”
The man is a shamless propaganda artist, nothing more. Remember what Rahm said “Never let a crisis go to waste”. Glad to see that includes murder.
Jen says: And how appropriate was it for one of your own (a pro-lifer) standing outside the entrance with 10-foot high pictures of dead, deformed babies for my young daughters to see? People who live in glass houses….
Thanks for the nightmare my daughter had last night.
Oh, and by the way, get some facts straight. The university printed and gave out those shirts, not the WH.
And did you forget the 2 different readings from the Bible?
Who has the right to judge this event that 1, doesn’t live in this community and 2, wasn’t even there???
Ken says: “Who has the right to judge this event that 1, doesn’t live in this community and 2, wasn’t even there???”
As Americans, we do. We have the right to form any opinion we wish, whether you agree with it or not. I always find it interesting that for 8 years of Bush the looney lefties tore into Bush whenever they had a chance.
Now that Obama is president its time for cooperation and putting aside “partisan politics”. Apparently that means all that is allowed is blind adoration.
Truly pathetic.
Jen says: Why make it political yet again? I said nothing about Obama, I was talking about the comments regarding how Tucsonans should be acting and feeling right now. And if you don’t live here, then you don’t know how we’re feeling. Certainly, you can empathize, but this is one of those situations in life that you will never understand how you will feel unless you experience it firsthand.
And I notice you made no comment in regards to the horror we experienced on the way in.
Ken says: “Why make it political yet again?”
So we should just shut up and sit down? Sorry, not gonna happen. WE didn’t make the “memorial” into a pep rally, yet we’re not supposed to have an opinion about it. I tell you what Jen, show us a link of you going to the Daily Kos and criticizing them for their disgusting and shameless acts of politicizing these murders, THEN you can come here and lecture us, ok?
“And I notice you made no comment in regards to the horror we experienced on the way in.”
You mean the horror that YOUR people commit by supporting abortion? I’m so sorry that your child had to come face to face with what you believe. Perhaps you can explain to her how killing unborn children is something YOUR people support.
Anything else?
Jen says: You don’t know anything about me or what I believe. You support pictures of dead babies at a memorial for a child who died? You support me having to explain to my 7yo what that picture was and what an abortion is? You celebrate my 7yo having nightmares because of those pictures?
You really are sick.
Ken says: “You don’t know anything about me or what I believe.”
Nor do you know me, correct? Your hypocrisy is stunning.
“You celebrate my 7yo having nightmares because of those pictures?”
Please show me where I CELEBRATED it?
“You really are sick.”
Of course, I am. I disagree with you so I must be sick. Typical left wing mantra.
Ken,
If we “leftists” extend our hands to you, if not in friendship, at least in the acknowledgment of a need to work together, will you not respond?
Dade
Ken says: “If we “leftists” extend our hands to you, if not in friendship, at least in the acknowledgment of a need to work together, will you not respond?”
Absolutely, but don’t interpret that as a sign that we won’t criticize the president when we feel he has done something wrong. As I’ve said before, apparently to the left blind adoration is all we are allowed to have. Anything else and we’re labeled hate mongers, racists, and traitors.
Also, if you’d like to start the healing process, you may want to begin with the left:
“Even as it began, some conservative commentators were posting comments criticizing the memorial service for being overly partisan and more like a pep rally, and there were some boos in the hall when Gov. Jan Brewer, a Republican, spoke. Those reactions would have been hard to imagine, say, in the days after the Oklahoma City bombing.”
“Palin Death Wish Tweets Re Tucson Shooting from Legal Insurrection on Vimeo.”
It seems quite evident that the left is spinning that hate at this time.
Agreed. I unequivocally condemn death threats against Sarah Palin and I condemn the boos directed at Jan Brewer.
Let’s raise the dialog.
Conservatives are not evil. Liberals are not evil.
I apologize for the many times I’ve used the term “tea-bagger.” It did nothing to promote the dialog. It exacerbated our divisions.
I respect your right to criticize the President.
Shall we go forward from here?
Marsha says: Hey Jen and any other Leftist that comes in here pointing fingers. The incendiary rhetoric that happens here on Kate’s blog is OVERWHELMINGLY from leftist like you that come in here all outraged because we call you on your sh*t. Kate has never encouraged hate speech but has been the target of it by you leftists on many occasions. The entire country is talking about your Memorial/Pep Rally for the dead and injured. You don’t want to be questioned about it? Too bad. We saw on national TV and this is still a country where Free Speech is allowed. Get over yourself and your fake outrage.
Marsha says: I am not going to change the way I debate. It’s really telling to me that your side is calling for a truce when many on your side are the most hateful, vile, and disgusting among us. I don’t hang Obama in effigy like the left does to Sarah Palin on Halloween. I don’t call for the assassination of Obama or other leftists like your side does with Sarah Palin or Rush. I don’t call for the shut down of MSNBC like you guys do of Fox.
If you want to do the kumbaya thing fine Dade. I have never not been decent to you. But your side started this. There is no moral equivalence here whatsoever. Civility now? That means letting your side off the hook for all the steaming pile of sh*t that is STILL coming out.
Simba says: @Dade
Nice gesture here. But could you tell Obama that I personally am concerned about his own lack of civility and the fact that when he calls for it, I don’t believe him.
For reference to my comment, here are just a few of Obama’s civil comments:
“bitter clingers”, “get in their face”, “you bring a knife we’ll bring a gun”, “punish your enemies”, “Republicans can sit at the back of the bus”.
I appreciate your honest answer, Marsha. But I’m disappointed by it.
Like I said, I’m through with the name-calling. But if you want to keep going with it –well, it’s a free country.
Count me out.
Simba,
Shall we put it all behind us, then? Shall we go forward together without harshing on each other?
Marsha says: Name calling? Whatever Dade.
Simba says: @Dade I don’t engage in hate mongering. I have only been on this blog a few times and really don’t know what goes on here. My point was that its fine if you personally make changes in the way you advocate your points. I commend your courage. But when you have a leader like Obama and an overwhelming army of haters like those on MSNBC and Daily Kos, the fighting will continue. It’s only a matter of time.
And by the way, in the history of our country, words themselves never killed a single person. This incident was not predicated on words either. To say so is disingenuous. The assault on Palin alone, who I am not a huge fan of personally, is beyond the pale. The assault on her family, unbelievable. It’s continuing today.
Simba,
Okay, so if you and I agree to set a new tone going forward from here, maybe we can get something started. Starts with me and you, eh?
My best,
Dade
chi says: I was afraid this would happen, and it did also Kate.
It sure seemed like a campaign rally. The posing for pictures at the end really sealed it for me.
imo, it must have been a kick in the gut for the families of the killed and injured to sit thru this. Yes, parts were uplifting and respectful, but when it turned to a rally, it turned my stomach.
Im just wondering how many family members are feeling this way?
Oregonian from rural Oregon says: Do you take issue with the prayer? I don’t understand why you and others like Michelle Malkin do. In my opinion, prayer is prayer. There was nothing offensive in the prayer, only that the person does not hold the same beliefs as you MAY (since I don’t know you I am not making assumptions).
A prayer is a prayer, especially at a memorial service. There were Christian references by several speakers, too. What is wrong with that?
If we are trying to rise above debate, shouldn’t we avoid demeaning people for their beliefs, or making a contest out of whose religion had more representation?
For the record, I am a Tribal member and grew up Catholic. I have been taught multiple religious traditions, and work to respect everyone’s religious freedom.
I hope that I can get a response from the blogger to help me better understand her point, so I can learn what issue she has taken with the prayer from last night.
Oregonian from rural Oregon,
Well said. And thanks for your calm and reasoning tone. BTW, I’m from rural Oregon, too, even though I live in Portland now. I’m a Southern Oregon Cascade mountain boy from Klamath Falls! Go KU Pelicans!!!!!
Dade
Ken says: “If we are trying to rise above debate, shouldn’t we avoid demeaning people for their beliefs, or making a contest out of whose religion had more representation?”
As I’ve said before, when I see the left “rise above” debate, then you can all come here and lecture us, but until they do, you should focus your efforts on them.
Am I angry? You bet. I’m angry that pundits from just about every national news outlet, whether it be TV, radio, or newspaper blamed conservatives for this tragedy. This whole “Let’s work together” speech is great and I agree with it. However, you might want to start your campaign on the Daily Kos, which seems to be the epicenter of hatred and “violent rhetoric”.
Let’s do it, then, Ken. I’ll try spreading the word with DailyKos readers and Crooks and Liars readers and ThinkProgress leaders. You try spreading the word with Free Republic readers and American Thinker readers and Glenn Beck followers.
You and I have always been friends, even though we exchanged some very sharp elbows. Let’s go forward without all that sh*t.
Oregonian from rural Oregon says: Hi Ken,
For the record, I have never read daily kos. I rarely read political blogs of any kind because I think they are all (left and right) generally done with little value add to the process or to the people who read them. I also don’t read major papers either, because they feed into a system that is focused more on sensationalism rather than substance. I found this blog after doing some searching about Michelle Malkin’s comments about the prayer.
With that being said, I will say people on the “left” and thank you for assuming I am one of them, also need to calm down. But if there is an olive branch extended, why not acknowledge it is there?
Finally, the response doesn’t answer the root of my question, but circles back to the previous comment topics. What I was trying to say is if people are trying to take the high road, how do they accomplish this by demeaning one’s religious freedom?
Oregonian from rural Oregon says: And I want to say that reading my second comments it sounds harsher than I tend it to be, I was only trying to provide responses to Ken.
Hi Jen
Fine. If you want to grieve, as a member of the Tucson community in a pep rally atmosphere, that’s your choice. It wouldn’t be mine. We have a right to comment because it didn’t just effect your community it effected the whole nation. As far as the unfortunate incident where your young daughter saw a picture of an aborted child, that’s too bad. I’m sorry that happened. But frankly abortion is bad and very ugly.
Hi Dade
I’m all for civil debate. However, I refuse to be quiet, sit down, or pull back on a punch when I feel something needs to be said. I really have very little to apologize for and really don’t feel a need to change my personal rhetoric. I am not a bomb thrower. I don’t yell at people. I don’t personally disrespect people who visit this blog. I don’t call for physical injury to anyone. I don’t call for people to take up arms.
I am sarcastic. I am mocking. I’m also watching to see how serious the rhetoric change will be on the left, including Obama’s, but I won’t be holding my breath.
Alright, Kate.
Personally, I don’t care what Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh do or say. I’m not going to let what they say provoke me in to hurling insults at other people.
I’m through with the vitriol. I want something different.
Hi Oregonian – thanks for visiting the blog.
You said ‘…or making a contest out of whose religion had more representation’.
I don’t believe I made ‘a contest’ out of whose religion had more representation. I made note of the Native prayer and the rock star attention it got and the observation that I saw no Christian representation. It has been widely reported that several of the victims killed were professing Christians and active in their churches. Seeing how the ‘memorial’ was to have been for them as well, I would have thought a Christian minister would be on the platform.
Oregonian from rural Oregon says: Kate,
Thanks for your reply. I inferred the “making a contest” part. I did not mean for it to seem as a direct quote.
To counter, I would say that Congresswoman Giffords is a Jew so should there have been a Rabbi there to pray for her recovery and a Christian minister for one victim, etc., etc.? Perhaps in a perfect world, yes. But to me a prayer is powerful regardless of the person’s religious beliefs.
And while I chose to comment on your blog out of a loyalty to Oregon 🙂 and the more civil tone of your post, I have been disappointed at the reaction to the prayer.
For instance can you support what Michelle Malkin did in mocking the gentleman? If you haven’t seen what she said, I would suggest a Google search. Again, I am not equating your comments to hers by any means, just that I think paying attention to who said the prayer is not the purpose of honoring the victims.
Thanks for your comments, look at all of us just being all polite!
Bettye says: Civility is fine and good. Things can be toned down from both the right and the left. But what about the politicizing of the event? What about the TShirts and the Banners with Obama’s campaign logo on it? Why was that done? Why do it during this Memorial? Obama has never left the campaign trail and to exploit this event or shall I say “seizing the opportunity” for re-election is SHAMEFUL.
Oregon commenter: I agree with someone above who said a Christian minister should have been represented. People died. Faith, personal faith, is important at times like that. You should never assume that any prayer will do when someone has died. That is NOT a Christian belief.
Rick says: Lectures from the LEFT on civility especially after the BUSH years? LMFAO! You first.
Callahan says: Instead of this ridiculous and exceptionally false argument about civility (people are human and it won’t last), let’s just have people take personal responsibility (novel concept!) which includes what comes out of their own pie hole.
ha! callahan i’m stealing that pie hole line for another day.
rick yep. its hard to for many of us to move past that. i’m not very trusting of this new found civility. btw, i’m stealing that too. 😉
bettye yes i think thats what got me most — the infused campaign rally.
Beth says: “Civility” in the lib lexicon = “no opposition.”
Oregonian from rural Oregon says: @Bettye, I did not make any comments about the event, I was saying I didn’t agree with the way people are demeaning or diminishing the act of the person who delivered the prayer. As you mentioned personal faith is important, and he was showing his. Others, including the President referenced scripture though I acknowledge this doesn’t count for an actual minister present.
I accept your comment about the importance of faith during death. In many if not most religions death rites are important. But also don’t assume that personal funeral rites in various churches haven’t taken place. I don’t know, but I assume that how people wanted to be laid to rest it has or will be done. My point was that if I am somewhere and I hear a prayer from let’s say a Baptist, a Jew or a Christian, or a Native religion I do not partake in, I still feel the gravity of what they are saying, and respect them for offering the prayer. He was sharing HIS faith and I don’t think it is appropriate to demean someone’s genuine faith.
@Rick, it sounds as if you know who I am or what I did or how I acted during the Bush years. You can generalize what you will, but please leave me out of the generalizations. And if you don’t think that I am trying to be civil during this conversation (i.e. “you first”), I don’t know what else I can do to demonstrate I am only trying to have a reasonable conversation. And just as the left has been extreme in their rhetoric during the Obama administration, the right was also extreme in their rhetoric during the Bush administration. I have long been tired of the process and I think better terms for the rhetoric that is used on both sides is empty and hypocritical.
finally @Callahan, I am trying to personally adhere to your suggestion! That makes two of us.
@Oregonian
Wow! You’re arguments are well-stated and courteous. A welcome addition to any discussion.
@Callahan, Rick, and Bettye
President Obama had some words last night, that I think you will agree with regarding how we can go forward from here:
“But what we can’t do is use this tragedy as one more occasion to turn on one another. As we discuss these issues, let each of us do so with a good dose of humility. Rather than pointing fingers or assigning blame, let us use this occasion to expand our moral imaginations, to listen to each other more carefully, to sharpen our instincts for empathy, and remind ourselves of all the ways our hopes and dreams are bound together.”
So, this tragedy has happened. Let’s not fight about it. Let’s not blame anybody. Let’s just try to be more respectful to each other.
Can any good American object to that?
Rick says: Oregon
I don’t know you or anything you or wasn’t speaking about you specifically. I live in Nevada and have been on this site only a few times. I was referring to the corporate LEFT whose lectures today all over TV and the internet are humorous. Seeing how they have set this bar, the collective RIGHT is watching and waiting.
Viv Lee says: Dissent is patriotic.
Bill Gholson
You said “You must have a very cold and ideological heart not to give up your blather in order to let the nation grieve.”
I’m sorry I missed this earlier. I assume you are referring to me since I wrote the post. Frankly Bill, I have neither a cold or an ideological heart. Just because I don’t like Obama, his propensity for eternally campaigning, or have strong values and beliefs that may differ from you doesn’t make me bad now does it? Please don’t break the blood oath of civility! The discourse police will come and get you.
Jen says: This is the only thing left to say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7OCgMPX2mE
3 days later.
Betondo Fuchatuch says: Well stated. Clear and articulate. I don’t know when memorial services became these rah-rah, pseudo-campaign spectacles – I’m sure grieving heads are spinning too.
The hyper-yoga, pretzel gyrations of the left never ceases to appall. When their side does it (“memorials”, blanket accusations w/o facts, bitter hate-filled attacks on groups expressing different opinions, etc.), it’s cool, we’re over-reacting, we’re racists, on and on.
Great piece, though. If this is par for your course, I’ll be Bahk!
Ken says: “For the record, I have never read daily kos.”
You just went up a few notches in my book, Oregonian!!!! 😉
“With that being said, I will say people on the “left” and thank you for assuming I am one of them, also need to calm down.”
It was not my intention to “classify” you, Oregonian. I don’t know your politics and didn’t mean to make it sound like I did.
You make some good points, there’s no doubt.
Ken says: “This is the only thing left to say”
No, it’s not. I can’t believe you were actually comparing the days after 9/11 to the days after the shooting.
Bush was not at a memorial service for the victims, he was there rallying the firefighters, emergency medical personnel and the police who had been digging through the rubble FOR THREE DAYS!!!!
Apples and Oranges, Jen, nice try.
I still can’t believe you tried to comare them. Ridiculous.
Jen says: I still can’t believe you are still talking about this. Have you heard from the family members that attended? I would think their opinion matters more than yours, and guess what? They have no problem with the service. They have no problem with the Native American blessing, or the readings from the Bible, or the president’s speech, or the cheering.
And with that said, I am done. My entire town is still healing and all I can say is thank you to them for helping me and each other in this process.
Ken says: “I still can’t believe you are still talking about this.”
I see. YOU can talk about it, but nobody is allowed to respond to your posts? Got it.
“I would think their opinion matters more than yours”
Wrong. They are entitled to their opinion as much as I am entitled to mine.
“They have no problem with the Native American blessing, or the readings from the Bible, or the president’s speech, or the cheering.”
That’s great, that doesn’t mean that nobody else is allowed to have an opinion. What abou that do you not understand Jen? What is so difficult for you to comprehend that we are allowed to have whatever opinion we choose whether you like it or not???
I thought of the so-called “newfound civility” in this comment thread, when I read this article today. Although I’d normally just post a link to an outside source, I realize some may neglect the clicking. Apologies to Kate for dumping such a large “quote” into her comments.
From Don Sturber, on civil discourse:
I do not want civil discourse
For a decade, from the election of Bush 43 forward, the Left has lied and cheated as it tried to return to power. Al Gore made a mockery out of the American electoral system by being a spoilsport over Florida, which Bush indeed won by 537 votes. Dan Rather forged a document to try to derail Bush’s re-election. Twice Democrats stole U.S. senators from the Republicans. After voting to support the war to get by the 2002 election, many Democrats quickly soured on the war. The profane protests were cheered by liberals who misattributed “dissent is the highest form of patriotism” to Thomas Jefferson; the words belong to the late historian Howard Zinn.
Once in power, liberals were the opposite of gracious.
For two years now, I have been called ignorant, racist, angry and violent by the left. The very foul-mouthed protesters of Bush dare to now label my words as “hate speech.”
Last week, the left quickly blamed the right for the national tragedy of a shooting spree by a madman who never watched Fox News, never listened to Rush Limbaugh and likely did not know who Sarah Palin is.
Fortunately, the American public rejected out of hand that idiotic notion that the right was responsible.
Rather than apologize, the left wants to change the tone of the political debate.
The left suddenly wants civil discourse.
Bite me.
The left wants to play games of semantics.
Bite me.
The left wants us to be civil — after being so uncivil for a decade.
Bite me.
There is grown-up work to do now. Liberals ran up the federal credit card, destroyed the American medical system and undermined the rule of law — which is the foundation of capitalism — with a bunch of unconstitutional fiats from the president and his bureaucracy.
The economy is a mess. The president “inherited” a 7.6% unemployment rate. It’s now 9.4% — after we spent a record $787 billion on a stimulus.
I was not consulted on that stimulus. I had a very good argument against it. I said the money supply was too large and printing more money would fail. I said let the economic downturn run its course.
Lefties were too busy celebrating the 2008 election to listen.
When people protested lefties made vulgar remarks about tea-bagging and giggled.
So screw you and your civil discourse.
I don’t want to hear it.
I have been screamed at for 10 years.
It’s my turn now. I am not going to scream back. But I refuse to allow anyone to dictate what I say or how I say it. I refuse to allow the same foul-mouthed, foul-spirited foul people who dumped on me to now try to tell me what I may or may not say.
My free speech matters more than the feelings of anyone on the left. You don’t like what I say? Tough.
I will not allow people to label my words Hate Speech or try to lecture me on civility. I saw the lefty signs. The left’s definition of civil discourse is surreal.
We have a terribly unfit president who has expanded government control beyond not only what is constitutional but what is healthy for our freedom.
Indeed, this call for civil discourse is itself a direct threat to my free speech.
So screw you.
You don’t like my words? You don’t like my tone? You feel threatened?
Too bad.
No.
Actually, that is what I want. I want the lefties to feel bad. I want them to feel hurt. I want them to cry to their mommies.
That way the field will be cleared so we grown-ups can fix the nation and the economy. If you can’t put up with a little excrement, get the hell out of the barn.
Howdy, everybody!
Jeff
Ken says: Interesting post, Jeff. Apparently the dems have given up on the new “civility” already:
“Today Rep. Steve Cohen (D-TN) compared Republicans to Nazis.”
There’s no doubt all the civility talk by the left was merely window dressing, but let them shoot themselves in the foot. Oops, can I still say that it?!?!?!
Hey Ken,
I’d not read through the long exchange in the more recent of Kate’s posts when I inserted that article. And I got a chuckle when I did read through it that we had both apparently, ironically quoted Sturber.
The one thing that I think the leftists can honestly claim to have positively contributed to the national discourse is a galvanized awareness within the Right regarding their machinations and intent.
When I see the outstretched hand of a liberal, I maintain one hand on my wallet and the other on my shootin iron. Their pretense toward civility is just another ruse.
Off the subject, next week at the NC General Assy, there is to be a rally celebrating the 1st Republican sweep of both houses in over 110 years. If I go, I shall be passing through the G/HP/WS neighborhood. If you’d care to ride along, drop me a note.
Ken says: “Off the subject, next week at the NC General Assy, there is to be a rally celebrating the 1st Republican sweep of both houses in over 110 years.”
When is it?
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