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Some things are easy to figure out. Others are more difficult. When it comes to acceptable behavior in public, for example, some things are considered appropriate to do in public and others are not. Women wearing low-cut tops that reveal cleavage would be considered not only acceptable, but expected, at a nightclub. At a church service, however, it would be considered distasteful. A man streaking across a football field naked doesn’t usually garner much outrage; it in fact usually ends up as a funny video on TV with his naughty parts blurred out. A man streaking near a middle school would offend people horribly, and likely get the man arrested.
We have a lot of double standards like that.
What we also have is a strong capitalist spirit in this country. Most Americans feel like a business owner or manager should be able to run his business as he sees fit. His customers are also free to leave that place of business and spend their money elsewhere if they don’t like the way the business operates. It’s a pretty simple concept.
These two points bring me to this story.
A group of women staged a “nurse-in” at a Winter Park Chick-Fil-A on Friday after a breast-feeding mom earlier in the week was asked to cover up by the restaurant manager.
The gathering was more outing than protest. About 30 parents – mostly moms, some nestling babies close to them in wraps – filled about half the restaurant, chatting and eating lunch. Those who nursed did so discreetly.
Manager Virginia Piter, who on Tuesday suggested Chylain Krivensky cover herself, worked her way through the crowd accompanied by a costumed cow character.
“Everyone makes mistakes, and I made a doozy, and I’m sorry that I did,” Piter said.
Piter had approached Krivensky of Orlando as she nursed her daughter at the children’s play area in Chick-fil-A. Offering her some towels, the manager suggested she cover up.
“I was so embarrassed,” Krivensky said.
She later contacted Chick-fil-A’s corporate office to complain about her experience at the restaurant on University Boulevard. She also told her friends. Word got around on the Internet, and the “nurse-in” was planned.
State law allows public breast-feeding, regardless of how much of a woman’s breast is exposed.
Piter and Weld said the intent was not to offend, just to find a way to keep everyone happy. Piter said she had approached Krivensky after some male customers complained that her breast-feeding made them uncomfortable.
Breast-feeding in public has always been a sticky situation. While breast-feeding in Florida is indeed legal, public nudity is not. Breast-feeding would surely not fall under the category of public nudity, but it’s easy to see how it can be confusing to some people.
The greater point here, however, is whether or not the restaurant manager was in the wrong. Was she?
I just want to start off by saying that, before I moved, I worked with kids. Where I worked, we had hour-long classes, and parents accompanied kids in some of the classes. There was one mom in particular who we had a breast-feeding issue with. We never said anything to her, for fear of what happened above happening to us, but she was never discreet and we had other members complain. See, right in the middle of class, she would nurse her daughter. She would just lift up her shirt, flip down her bra, and completely bare her entire breast to everyone. She didn’t cover up, she didn’t turn away, and we all — moms, kids, and staff — would see everything. She may be allowed to do such a thing, but it seemed to me rather insensitive. It did make people there uncomfortable. It made the staff uncomfortable, especially the male staff, and it made many of the other moms there uncomfortable. Plenty of moms would breast-feed during class, but they would be discreet about it, covering themselves up with a blanket or at least turning away so that everyone in the class didn’t now know the exact size, color, and placement of their nipples.
Now, supposedly the woman who filed a complaint with Chik-Fil-A was being discreet. That’s great for her. However, the manager in this situation was caught in a very tricky situation. On the one hand, she had customers complaining to her because it made them feel uncomfortable, so she asked the breast-feeding mom to cover herself up. That’s perfectly understandable. On the other hand, the breast-feeding patron flipped out and now, the manager has to backtrack and pacify thirty breast-feeding moms.
All because the mom was “embarassed”.
I have to say, I feel for the manager in this situation and not much for the breast-feeding mom. First of all, a restaurant owner or manager should absolutely be allowed to decide how their business operates. If they don’t want breast-feeding moms in their place of business, then that’s their business. It may cost them customers, sure, but it’s their decision to make. Second, you see these stories all the time. Some establishment doesn’t want a mom to breast-feed in public without covering up, or wants them to use the restroom, and you see scores of breast-feeding moms out there in protest. But do those moms ever stop and think about the other patrons? No, because it’s all about them. They want to breast-feed in public, dammit, and to hell with what anyone else things. They’re going to stamp their little feet until they get their way, much like the children they’re breast-feeding would do. It doesn’t matter whether or not other customers are uncomfortable, it doesn’t matter if business operators should be able to run their businesses the way they should be run. Women should be allowed to breast-feed in public whether the public likes it or not. When you really think about it, it’s pretty childish.
After all, just imagine if the male streaker got caught streaking at McDonald’s and a manager came over and asked him to leave. The streaker then organized a protest saying that being nude is a form of expression for him and therefore is a First Amendment right, and brought fifty other streakers along with him. No one would applaud “flash-ins”, would they? And while breast-feeding is obviously nowhere near as vile as running around naked, the point is still the same.
Public decency still matters to some extent in this country, although if we keep on bending over backwards to accomodate adults throwing temper tantrums like two-year-olds, it may not for much longer.
Hat Tip: House of Eratosthenes
mj says: I was having lunch at Friendly’s one day, and glanced across the aisle to see a woman breastfeeding. My initial thoughts were about whether there were any sanitary concerns involved, having dealt with the county health department during teenage employment. If I were a parent, I think I’d possibly have been concerned about the way it was being done in front of children. Management and employees simply ignored it.
People need to learn how to handle protestors better. This protest could have been ended in about 10 seconds. Instead of walking through apologizing, all the manager had to do was head down to a local college bar, grab about 20 drinking male students and have them start yelling “Show your tits” or “let’s see the boobs” and taking pictures once the protest started. The whiners would have run out of there faster than Obama when he gets a tough question.
Jim says: The nursing Nazis are out there and demanding everyone accept their view of what is natural and right. Simply because something is natural, doesn’t mean it should be flaunted in public. After all, we do many things in a public restroom which are natural, but which we first segragate men from women and wouldn’t want done in public.
Nursing is natural, but a little consideration for others would make simply covering up a bit something that a normal person should have no trouble doing.
Gren says: No one would applaud flash ins because flashers do so for their own gratification. Breast feeding is done to keep a helpless infant hale and hearty. When a baby is hungry, its time to feed it. How many options does this breast feeding mom really have?
Go to the car and feed the baby? Not in Florida in the summer. That car gets smoking hot pretty fast.
Go to the bathroom and feed it? Gross. You would not eat in a bathroom.
Drive home while the baby cries and then feed it? Not very practical.
Whip out her boob and let her baby drink confident the law allows her to do so? Right answer.
As far as staging a protest. She had a right to do this. She could have made a scene and called in the police to back her up (as the law was on her side). Would that have been a better solution?
MJ you have the wrong attitude. If your (hypothetical) kids saw a woman breast feeding then you have a wonderful opportunity to show them a non-sexualized function of breasts. You could make it into something cool instead you got all uptight.
Chris, you are an idiot. 1) Chick Filet has a christian basis and that is exactly what they would not do. 2) Shaming women like that would just lead to bigger and worse protests due to mishandling. I am sure you will try to pull the “I was joking” defense in which case I also call you a coward.
zil says: Hello, we’re fuckin mammals…hint, it’s in the name ‘mammal’…you’re double standard ananlogy sucks and makes no sense…
Billy Lactater says: Hey Brastrap face,
Brastrap face, demonstrate to us how you would breast feed Barack Obama. Love the brastrap, Brastrap Face.
Billy
Aimee says: I have gone round and round with a couple of my friends over the breast-feeding “issue”. I have one 19-year-old daughter who I chose not to breast feed.(She graduated Salutatorian of her class, is now on Dean’s list, and is perfectly healthy, so I’m pretty skeptical of the whole argument that formula-fed babies are sickly and brain-starved, thank you!) I am disgusted by women who insist on whipping out a boob anywhere they want because their infant is on the verge of fussiness. I grew up on a beef/dairy/hog farm, and frankly, breast-feeding women are reduced to cows with udders in my mind when they insist that everyone around them view their mammaries. I’m not saying breast feeding isn’t great for those who choose it, my mom saw fit to feed me that way. 🙂 However, at the very least, a receiving blanket or towel should be used to cover up BEFORE supper is on, and really, why in the name of modesty and everyone’s comfort can’t breast-feeding women go to the restroom, or the back of the room, or something. And really, if nursing mothers know they’re going out in public with their babies, why not do some PUMPING for the occasion? We have the technology! I asked one of my friends (who breast-fed her last child til 18 months, gross) if she’s so comfortable baring her breasts in a restaurant, department store, or my house, why does she go to the “parents with small children” room in the back of our church when she needs to feed? Why the modesty there? *Awkward silence* Sigh… I so agree with you that breast-feeding mothers are a selfish breed. Don’t think they’ll ever change though, they have hormones on their side.
I R A Darth Aggie says: There’s a solution to this problem.
The male customers who felt uncomfortable should have just stared at the boob in question.
Two things would then transpire: the boob in question would have covered up pretty darn quickly, and then complain that those men where staring at her uncovered boob.
Sorry, it’s natural. It’s what we guys do.
jones says: Sorry, im with the breast feading moms. So is about 99% of the voting population. It is actually a misdemenor in Indiana to interfere with a woman who is breastfeading in the way this manager did. A breastfeeding mom was removed from an Indiana University basketball game by security, prompting the bill in the General Assembly, where it passed with overwelming support. If you find breastfeeding that uncomfortable perhasps you should move to Saudi Arabia where I hear that they keep there women covered up much better in public.
Agree with Chris. Humour can go a long way towards pointing out the absurdity of other people’s behaviour.
As for breast feeding: the entire thing is predicated on the false dichotomy that is seen in Gren’s comment: either show the entire restaurant your breasts or let a helpless infant starve. No, ladies, you can cover up – wear a nursing bra, a loose-fitting shirt, or a light blanket. It’s not like breasts don’t work if they are inside of a shirt.
Yes, kids need to eat. Know what? They also need to poop and pee, but I would be pretty angry if a mother decided that her baby’s diaper needed to be changed *right then and there.* Yes, we all have needs, and those needs cannot wait for hours, but there is a time and place for everything.
MJ you have the wrong attitude. If your (hypothetical) kids saw a woman breast feeding then you have a wonderful opportunity to show them a non-sexualized function of breasts.
Um, not really. Given that women are nursing *babies,* who come into this world through sex, breast feeding still relates to the sexual function of human breasts. There is a sexual function to a lot of women’s bodies – breasts, internal organs, hips, etc – that all has to do with sexual pleasure and the next generation. Breasts aren’t like lips, which have a non-sexual function.
By the way, I don’t happen to believe that we sexualise breasts (although we do fetishise them, and yes, there is a difference). It’s not society that gives men and women both pleasure from that part of the body.
Er… sorry for the second comment… but let me add that I’m sure a lot of breast-feeding moms would throw a fit if their husbands were to take them at their “breasts are for babies” word and omit that part of foreplay.
Just saying.
mojoe says: We had this come up recently here in Mass. when a woman sat down in an aisle of one of those ItzaParty stores and began breastfeeding.
Of course the manager asked her to;
A) Be more discreet.
B) Not sit in the middle of the aisle.
The usual feminist outrage followed. “It’s her right!” Really? I don’t remember reading that one. “It’s natural!” So is urination and spitting saliva but society sort of frowns on you when you do that in certain locations.
Something like this happened a few years ago when I was working in a bookstore. It was a little disconcerting and several patrons were kinda gawking. They were looking at me to do something about it and I did go to my manager, who did nothing. The lesson that I learned from that is that people can do pretty much anything they want, whenever they want (Remember the Boomerism: If it feels good, then just do it). It seems to me that the more technologically-modern we become, the more people revert to an animal-like behavior. Welcome to the Age of “Me-ism.”
Jon Craft says: My wife and I have two kids. She breastfeeds them. The issue Cassy brings up is a good one. A little moderation easily solves the problem. My wife, without a blanket of any kind, can nurse and most people don’t even realize what she is doing. It’s not difficult, so the breastfeeding-let-all-hang-out ladies are being unreasonable.
However, some of the posts here show a decidedly negative attitude towards breastfeeding. In particular, the post that said it is gross to breastfeed an 18 month old, and compared breastfeeding moms to cows comes from an uninformed, though apparently opinionated, person. Pediatricians recommend breastfeeding babies for at least a year, *and* as long after that as both child and mother want to. Natural weaning in pre-industrial societies was from 3 – 5 years of age. Modern prejudices do not change biology. Studies have shown a number of benefits to breastfed babies (no one says it will necessarily ruin your child if you don’t — thanks for that nasty strawman argument, from the same person, by the way).
So, just ease up on both sides. Breastfeeding is good. Consideration of others’ feelings is also a good thing, and they can go together.
Joe says: The rule is simple; if a woman has hot breasts, she should be allowed to expose them at any time. Otherwise, no. (So, my wife is permitted to expose her breasts at any time–my nearest sister-in-law is not.)
Sombro says: Shouldn’t this really come down to what the proprietor will allow in his establishment? Any restaurant or bar I go in I consider to be the proprietor’s “living room,” so to speak and it’s his rules.
If they want to “protest” do it on public property, ladies; otherwise show some class.
Jeez, my libertarian side is showing. Sue me.
Gren says: Roxanne, it is not a false dichotomy. What the problem seems to be is the actual baby sucking on a breast. oh no horrors. You can see more boob at the beach or just in a low cut tank top. Men who seem to have no problem staring at a hottie with boobs nearly popping out of her outfit seem to come all over in disgust when there is a baby attached.
The same with women. I can see more of Cassy’s tits on her website than I see when most women breast feed. That big baby head covers an awful lot. So I really have to ask where the problem lies? I can tell you it is not the woman breast feeding. It is you.
As far as changing a baby. They get changed where and when it is needed. I have changed my children in parks, in the back of the car, the side of the highway, even in a restaurant (usually because the baby changing are is covered in crap). If you have a problem with that that is your issue not mine.
Please note I said “a non-sexualized function of breasts.” So it could have been discussed in a way that does not include sex and would have related only to the feeding aspect. Your definition of sexual function is broad enough that I could say eating lunch is sexual because I use my mouth to kiss my wife and I like it.
In short, you people who dislike seeing a woman breast feed are insufferable prudes who need to learn how to look in a different direction if you don’t like what you see. Your children will not be traumatized by seeing a woman suckling her child. The world will not end because you saw a little extra boob today.
mj says: Gren: I have the wrong attitude?
I believe the best parenting comes from parents; not from the government and not from strangers. I think that it is best for parents to make decisions regarding how to teach about sex and human development. Under the circumstances, a non-parent was forcing the issue.
I hardly got all uptight, I finished my lunch.
Gren says: “a non-parent was forcing the issue”
MJ, life is full of non-parents forcing issues; people who say or do things with which you disagree or which you dislike. The idea in life is to learn how to explain those things to your kids because you can never protect them from all “non-parents.” That is the way you do the best parenting.
In summary, you still have the wrong attitude and you are apparently bad at parenting.
RuthenianCowboy says: Non-sexuwhat? Breasts? I’m not following.
WayneB says: Gren – Roxanne saying it is a false dichotomy means that it is not an either/or all-or-nothing issue. There are women who are discreet, and there are women who are blatant. All we’re asking for is discreet.
And if you change your child’s diaper in a restaurant, you can be ejected on Health issues.
Amelia says: Breast feed in a restroom? Where? On the toilet? Riiiight. The logistics of that would work great.
I’m inclined to think that people who suggest using the toilet to breastfeed aren’t very familiar with breastfeeding. If she can’t sit in a chair with arms then Mom has to support the kid’s head with that arm while she feeds him – for more than 2 or 3 minutes. That gets pretty uncomfortable real fast. Standing up to do it is even worse.
I understand that it makes some people uncomfortable when a mom breastfeeds – lots of men don’t know where it’s acceptable to look. They don’t want to be called pervs for staring at a baby eating if they glance the mom’s way, so do they just not look at the woman at all?
I breastfed my son, but I knew everybody didn’t want to see it. If I got unlucky and had to feed my son outside of the house I’d find a nice corner out of the way to do it in. I wore a nursing bra and loose shirts so I could stick his head under my shirt. I tried real hard to keep from showing my nipples. There’s a way to do it without showing a lot of skin. Why it’s not a problem to show a ton of cleavage but it is a problem to show a bit of skin while breastfeeding, I don’t know. That’s just the way it is. Maybe if it was more common people would be less weirded out by it. Maybe not.
But telling a mom to go breastfeed in the bathroom just isn’t a feasible solution to the problem.
“Gren Says:
“What the problem seems to be is the actual baby sucking on a breast. oh no horrors.”
Yeah, the thing I want to see most in a public place is a baby slobbering all over a tit. Especially if I’m about to each a meal. You have no idea what kind of horror that is…
“You can see more boob at the beach or just in a low cut tank top.”
Um, yeah, it’s the beach. Think about that one for a sec…
“Men who seem to have no problem staring at a hottie with boobs nearly popping out of her outfit seem to come all over in disgust when there is a baby attached.”
Oh please, way to turn this into a men vs. women argument. From what I can tell, several of the responses have been from women, so it’s by no means just a men’s issue. In my example, the one most disgusted in the bookstore happened to be a fellow woman.
“The same with women. I can see more of Cassy’s tits on her website than I see when most women breast feed.”
Uh, not in my case. I think there’s a profound difference between cleavage and whipping out the tit.
“That big baby head covers an awful lot.”
Not always, especially the ones who are trying to make a scene (yes, they do exist).
“So I really have to ask where the problem lies? I can tell you it is not the woman breast feeding. It is you.”
Of course, it’s someone else’s fault. That kinda goes in line with the personal responsibility (or lack of) theme. Seriously, I really don’t want to hear a kid slurping on a tit while I’m trying to eat (or do anything else for that matter). Why do I have to be the one who’s dicreet? Why can’t they? Because they’re loud-mouthed jackasses and they’ll throw a temper tantrum if they don’t get their way? That’s childish.
“As far as changing a baby. They get changed where and when it is needed. I have changed my children in parks, in the back of the car, the side of the highway, even in a restaurant (usually because the baby changing are is covered in crap). If you have a problem with that that is your issue not mine.”
Here’s the question. When you have to breastfeed, do you deliberately go out of your way to do that in a public place? Because it seems to me that a good number of them do (not all), for silly reasons. They want to make a scene. Like I said before, that’s pretty childish. These are the same women who pull out a tit, have a kid noisily slurp away and then get irritated when the ruckus causes everyone around them look at them. So I’d say it’s an issue for everybody.
“In short, you people who dislike seeing a woman breast feed are insufferable prudes who need to learn how to look in a different direction if you don’t like what you see.”
Uh, it’s kinda hard to ignore it, especially when one is deliberately trying to get attention.
“Your children will not be traumatized by seeing a woman suckling her child. The world will not end because you saw a little extra boob today.”
Well, that’s the million-dollar question, isn’t it? No, that little thing may not cause the end of civilization, but enough of the little things and it does cause major problems. You ever hear that saying of “dying from a thousand cuts?” As far as a child being “traumatized,” I think it’s up to the parent of that kid to decide when he/she gets to see nudity as well as the birds and the bees. It shouldn’t be forced on them by a loud-mouthed minority, which is exactly the case here.
Melinda P says: Discression is the key! Bring a receiving blanket or an extra beach towel with you. (You know you got 4000 receiving blankets and don’t know what to do with all of them.) No biggie. I think we women need to make sure that we are doing what’s best for our kids. So feed the baby, but do it so that your boob isn’t sticking out. No biggie.
Knott Buyinit says: Wow, is this interesting. What a world we live in that Florida, or any government entity, feels the need to pass a law regarding breast-feeding in public. I’m going to remember this next time some liberal tells me to get my morals out of his or her bedroom. I might start shouting like the ‘What’s Next’ guy! “GET YOURS OUT OF MY RESTAURANT!
Just because something is legal and natural doesn’t mean that everyone will find it to be moral, depending on the situation. This whole issue – the laws and the necessity for them, the event cited above, the whole enchilada – could have been avoided if everybody concerned had just shown a little discretion, a working understanding of the laws of nature, and a modicum of sensitivity for the feelings of others.
And, really, how long does it take to eat a sandwich in Chik-Fil-A? I won’t even go in there because they charge you double price for half size, so I know it can’t take long. Taking that into consideration, and considering her (over)reaction to what happened, I am suspicious of this lady’s motivation. I’m betting she was looking for trouble – and voted for Obama.
I R A Darth Aggie says: Natural weaning in pre-industrial societies was from 3 – 5 years of age.
Got a citation for that one? Typically, once the offspring has teeth and takes a nip, that’s the end of the breastfeeding.
David says: I think this is purely a cultural issue. As an American in Europe it was initially shocking to see boobs whipped out, but the thing is, a nursing baby is about the least sexual thing in the universe (apart from Rosie O’Donnell). It’s fine and good to be discreet, but the idiots here who suggest breastfeeding on toilets or keeping it at home are just venting nonsense.
It’s always quite normal for small children to be at the beach naked in Europe. Are they automatically wrong because they are not conforming to American societal expectations?
I have three kids. Seeing the babies sucking on the wife’s boobs was a big wake-up to what breasts are actually for, biologically. They are not toys or accessories, they are for feeding infants. Some small part of me died when I realised that. 🙁
“MJ you have the wrong attitude. If your (hypothetical) kids saw a woman breast feeding then you have a wonderful opportunity to show them a non-sexualized function of breasts. You could make it into something cool instead you got all uptight.”
If males could view a woman’s exposed breast in a “non-sexualized” way, then there would be no issue with breast-feeding in public. Absolutely true. But the, if drunk people had the same reaction time as sober people, there would be no issue with drunk driving. If gravity didn’t exist there would be no issue with falling off tall buildings. We could make endless such statements, all absolutely true, and all irrelevant to real life.
I can’t help but wonder: If men had stared at this breast-feeding woman and made sexual comments, would she have complained to the manager? Why? After all, sexual arousal is perfectly natural. How can you tell them that they have no right to be sexually aroused by exposed female body parts?
Suzie says: I used to be a lifeguard. There was a woman who would come to the pool and breastfeed her baby completely exposed. I felt very weird around the situation as did my 18 year old male and female co-workers. Yes, it is a natural thing, but a bit of modesty would have been appreciated by all of the lifeguards. I never said anything to her because I had no words for it.
I have seen women breastfeed in public in a way that did not make me uncomfortable. It is not necessary to whip out the breast for the world to see and still feed the baby. My cousin did this at a family gathering. It took me a while to even realize she was feeding her daughter. I was fine with it.
“David Says:
I think this is purely a cultural issue. As an American in Europe it was initially shocking to see boobs whipped out, but the thing is, a nursing baby is about the least sexual thing in the universe (apart from Rosie O’Donnell). It’s fine and good to be discreet, but the idiots here who suggest breastfeeding on toilets or keeping it at home are just venting nonsense.
It’s always quite normal for small children to be at the beach naked in Europe. Are they automatically wrong because they are not conforming to American societal expectations?”
Last time I checked, this isn’t Europe (no matter how muh the Left tries to turn this country into that) and I’m not really interested in what they do over the pond. I wouldn’t get too excited at using Europeans as an example because in 50 years or so, they’ll be a minority on their own continent. You really want to hold up a dying culture as the pinnacle of awesomeness?
“I have three kids. Seeing the babies sucking on the wife’s boobs was a big wake-up to what breasts are actually for, biologically. They are not toys or accessories, they are for feeding infants. Some small part of me died when I realised that.”
Did your wife tell you that? Actually, breasts (more for the female than that male) very much have a dual purpose. Not only are they nursing tools, but they also have a sexual purpose.
“As far as changing a baby. They get changed where and when it is needed. I have changed my children in parks, in the back of the car, the side of the highway, even in a restaurant (usually because the baby changing are is covered in crap). If you have a problem with that that is your issue not mine.”
Um, you want to know why the “baby changing are [sic] is covered in crap”? Because people change their babies on it. Likewise, that nifty eating table that you are using could become covered in crap, just like the items in a restroom.
Your lack of consideration is not my blind spot.
—
On a separate note, judging by Mat’s last line, we agree on something and Hell hath not frozen over.
To take this in a slightly different direction: there is a reason why breast cancer, more than other cancers, really tugs at women’s heart strings. For women who are done with nursing, as the vast majority of breast cancer patients are, having a breast removed has the same functional effect on the body as having an appendectomy. Yet, women don’t cry over appendectomies or hold rallies for it or walk for it the way that they do for breast cancer. Reconstruction, which does not restore the functional (i.e. nursing) capabilities of a post-mastectomy breast, is covered by insurance companies in every state or almost every state, by law, because women find it so very important to have breasts, even if they are not functional, and even if their primary function is no longer applicable (i.e. menopausal women).
Square that, please, with this idea that breasts are about feeding infants, even on an emotional level, even to women.
The same with women. I can see more of Cassy’s tits on her website than I see when most women breast feed. That big baby head covers an awful lot. So I really have to ask where the problem lies? I can tell you it is not the woman breast feeding. It is you.
Gren,
First of all, it is not just me – there are a LOT of people who don’t think that women should be whipping out their breasts in public, whether or not a baby is attached. So nice try in making it a personal problem of mine, but it’s just not.
Second, and as addressed above, it’s not about cleavage; it’s about ensuring that the nipple and areola are covered. If the baby’s head really covered that much, patrons wouldn’t be complaining, now would they?
Third, nice job totally ignoring my comment right after the one you responded to, in which I pointed out that women can do the same thing they do in every other situation: cover their breasts.
Finally: as a woman who dresses modestly (and caught up in the romantic notion that her body is for one man and one man alone), the “but other women dress show a lot of boob” argument isn’t going to fly. Also, note that this is Cassy’s website and further note that it’s not all about square inches of skin. It’s also about what part and percentage of skin is showing. I’m smaller than Cassy, but it would obviously be wrong for me to parade around topless, rationalising that there is approximately the same amount of breast showing as Cassy shows in some of her pictures.
“Chris you are an idiot” “I’ll also call you a coward”
Oh noes. Big Bad Gren is going to call me names. I’m doomed now. Such intelligent banter as idiot and coward. Wow. I don’t know if I can compete with that burst of Mensa like activity but I’ll try.
“Chick Filet has a christian basis and that is exactly what they would not do”
But I would and I think it would have been hysterical.
“Shaming women like that would just lead to bigger and worse protests due to mishandling”
Probably, but that first part would have been hysterical. You need to lighten up a bit or get some counseling. Dang, you’re uptight.
But let’s get serious and roll this back to the crux of what you were saying would have been the right thing because you are way wrong.
“As far as staging a protest. She had a right to do this. ”
Now, since these two sentences are fragmented, so I am going t cover both bases. So if you were saying that she had a right to do a sit in protest, then I hate to be the one to tell you this, but you DON’T have the right to stage a protest INSIDE AN establishment. Outside on the sidewalk, ok, but inside, not so much. The ownership can (and often does) have people removed in a rather rude fashion, or if they are creative, chased out by college students chanting, well, you know. The ONLY thing that prevented this from being completely actionable by the management was the fact they bought food. So it wasn’t a protest as much as it was “hey, let’s all dump bucks into the pocket of that place that told me to stop feeding and we’ll all feed there just to show them.” I’m sure that every place that caused complaints would love its complainers to show them by coming back with more customers.
Now, if you were meaning breastfeeding by the “she had a right to do this” fragment, then just include that part in the below response.
“She could have made a scene and called in the police to back her up (as the law was on her side). Would that have been a better solution? ”
Yes, it would have been. It would have taught a very valuable lesson to the management on making sure they teach their managers correctly. If it was legal for her to feed the kid, then they have no recourse provided she was a paying customer and that would have driven it home pronto.
Her reaction smacks of “I couldn’t afford my therapist bill this month so I need something that validates me and is all about meeeeee”. Holding whiney little sit-ins like that call for fun counter measures.
The bottom line is a simple receiving blanket would have solved the whole thing, but hey, why do that when we can cause a scene…
I would continue, but Mat, Roxeanne, Wayne, Melinda and the rest already chewed you up and spat you out. Hope they did so in a sanitary place. Toodles.
Gren to mj: “… and you are apparently bad at parenting”
Geez, you know all about mj’s parenting skills from a random comment in a blog? Wow, that’s even better than the Amazing Kreskin. Oh, and if you change a diaper in the middle of a restaurant, then you have nothing to say about ANYONE’s parenting skills. Seriously, you are one judgeMENTAL person. Get some help.
likwidshoe says: The entitlement mindset bears some ugly fruits.
There’s a solution to this: recognizing and respecting private property. Those who demand to breast feed in a building that is not theirs, at a business that is not theirs, are selfish brats.
This nation is losing respect and class.
Gren says: It is easy to be judgmental on the internet. According to internet protocol I will now compare you all to Nazis and denigrate your worth as people. As a result I think the interweb rules say I automatically lose the argument.
You are all Nazis and human scum who smell bad. There. You win, I lose. Feel better now.
Seriously though I get why some of you were upset at this woman. You feel that holding a breast feeding protest was not the best way for her to handle this problem. You also think she could have just covered up and problem solved.
I disagree. I commonly see people stare at women breastfeeding in public even when they discreetly cover up. People seem freaked out by the whole idea of a baby sucking on his mother’s breast. Please explain why seeing part of the areola makes such a difference in this case. In my opinion the difference is that people cannot separate the sexual possibilities from the functional. Why? because people don’t see breast feeding all the time so it is strange and weird to them. So they get upset at the woman because seeing her made them feel uncomfortable. But is it really the woman’s fault that you feel uncomfortable? No it is your own. Your own hang ups and issues are the cause not the woman and her child.
Other people have made many interesting points regarding my earlier posts. I am ignoring them all just because there are too many items to which I need to respond. I guess that is the problem arguing with a nazi mob (eh eh?).
“Seriously though I get why some of you were upset at this woman. You feel that holding a breast feeding protest was not the best way for her to handle this problem. You also think she could have just covered up and problem solved.”
Ya think?
“I disagree. I commonly see people stare at women breastfeeding in public even when they discreetly cover up. People seem freaked out by the whole idea of a baby sucking on his mother’s breast.”
Well, I don’t particularly like kids anyway (they’re loud and they smell…), so as I said before, I’d rather not have to either see or hear a baby noisily slurping away. Particularly if I’m eating in a public place. But then, there are many things I don’t really want to see and hear while I’m eating (think certain TV commercials and I’ll leave it at that).
“Please explain why seeing part of the areola makes such a difference in this case. In my opinion the difference is that people cannot separate the sexual possibilities from the functional. Why?”
Because as Roxeanne pointed out (this will take getting used to) the breast doubles both as a sexual and a feeding organ (is that really the word I want to use?). It’s hardwired into our consciousness.
“Because people don’t see breast feeding all the time so it is strange and weird to them.”
That’s a prize understatement. And I’d like to keep it that way.
“So they get upset at the woman because seeing her made them feel uncomfortable. But is it really the woman’s fault that you feel uncomfortable? No it is your own. Your own hang ups and issues are the cause not the woman and her child.”
First of all, it’s not a hang up, its a difference of opinion. Why is my opinion more wrong than another. Because I supposedly stand in the way of “progress,” (this is a very loaded term) whatever the hell that is? What those women did was nothing short of a political and ideological statement and perhaps I’m just getting sick and tired of the nonsense (let’s face it, what those women did was a big Fuck You and In Your Face to the rest of us and nothing less). The fact is that I don’t want to see that in front of me, so I don’t see why I should inconvenience myself so that someone else can do whatever the hell they please.
By your analogy, I should be able to just pee or crap whereever I felt like it. After all, they’re both natural acts. I mean, you gotta go when you gotta go, right? And to hell with anyone else or common decency, because I had to go right then and there because it was just that time. People don’t like it? Tough titty-toenails. I can do what I want.
Is that above paragraph absurd? Absolutely. But it’s really no different than what the radical breast-feeders are claiming. You tell me otherwise.
Gren says: “You are all Nazis and human scum who smell bad. There. You win, I lose. Feel better now”
Hey now. How dare you say I smell! This Nazi human scum showers every day.
“You feel that holding a breast feeding protest was not the best way for her to handle this problem. You also think she could have just covered up and problem solved.”
Exactly on both points.
“I disagree”
Hence the spirited debate.
“Why? because people don’t see breast feeding all the time so it is strange and weird to them. So they get upset at the woman because seeing her made them feel uncomfortable. But is it really the woman’s fault that you feel uncomfortable?”
Yes and no. See what we have here is a difference in uncomfortable feelings. See, she is uncomfortable being asked to cover up. People are uncomfortable with the feeding thing. So, her being uncomfortable being asked to cover up is her hang up (per your analogy) and not the fault of the customers. Why is her hangup more valuable than the others in the store? Because she’s feeding a kid? So are most of the other people.
“Other people have made many interesting points regarding my earlier posts. I am ignoring them all just because there are too many items to which I need to respond.”
Yeah that happens when it’s 10+ against 1. Been there done that.
This is basically a “religous war” kind of like Mac vs PC or DC Comics vs Marvel. No one will concede and the battle rages on. For my part, I agree she had the right to do that. I don’t have a problem with her action or even the manager who was between a rock and a hard place. I think her post-issue actions are the ones that I disagree with. Hence the deragatory humor targetting her.
Anyway, onward to bigger and better things. See y’all on the next thread.
Justin says: “As far as changing a baby. They get changed where and when it is needed. I have changed my children in parks, in the back of the car, the side of the highway, even in a restaurant (usually because the baby changing are is covered in crap). If you have a problem with that that is your issue not mine.”
You change your baby in a restaurant? A restaurant?
What the hell is wrong with you? What kind of perverse, socially incompetent reject changes a baby’s crap filled diaper in the middle of a freaking eating area?
I certainly hope the management had the sense to immediately expel you from the establishment, and ban you from ever setting foot in there again.
Talk about self centered.
Gren says: Justin, a baby wallowing in crap needs to be changed and some restaurants don’t have changing facilities or bathrooms with enough counter space to change a baby upon. My wife and I have a mat we bring with us for such occasions and the baby lays on it while we change her. Then we clean the mat and toss the diaper in the restroom. All is well and nobody has to smell poop longer than absolutely necessary. I have never been asked to change my baby somewhere else mostly because I can change the baby faster than it takes most people to notice that a naked baby is there.
It is obvious you are not a parent but I won’t judge you for that because I had the same attitudes when I was single and childless. On the same vein though I will note that perverse socially incompetents are almost never married with children. (Though I might be one of those crazy exceptions.)
Mat, as an adult you can hold it. The equation changes with children. Sometimes a kid just had got to go. I remember once in London my son had to pee. I took him into the Mews behind Buckingham palace, where we were at the time, and asked to use the toilet. They declined to allow us in unless we paid the 15 quid entrance fee. Unfortunately, the UK in general and the area around Buckingham in particular is bereft of public facilities so my son had to pee on the palace (technically on the fence).
Yes yes, I know it makes me a perverse socially incompetent reject Nazi who smells bad but my son is not gonna wallow in pee because the Queen won’t let him use the toilet.
“Mat, as an adult you can hold it. The equation changes with children. Sometimes a kid just had got to go. I remember once in London my son had to pee. I took him into the Mews behind Buckingham palace, where we were at the time, and asked to use the toilet.”
Obviously you didn’t read my comment, because it was directed at the breastfeeding. I’m trying to figure out how my comment ended up with a kid going to the bathroom. Apples and oranges, pal; apples and oranges.
Your implication is that breastfeeding is natural and that mothers should be able to just whip out the tit anywhere they like (hence my comment about bathroom stuff). I believe otherwise. There are just things one should and should not do. I just happen to think this in the “should not do” category. And BTW, changing dirty diapers in an eating area is pretty disgusting. What blows my mind is that you don’t see anything wrong with that, since its a serious hygiene issue. Were you raised in a barn? Wow, talk about narcissism.
“On the same vein though I will note that perverse socially incompetents are almost never married with children.”
Hmmm…Well, given the fact that the “sexual revolution” of the 60’s has led to some pretty whacked up social-sexual behavior, I hardly see why not getting married and not having kids is perverse or even socially incompetent. Why the hell would I want to raise kids in this screwed up environment? As far as sex, 1/4 of the women in this country (at least) have some form of STD. Think about that. For example, if a woman has herpes and if I were to get it (even if we’re married), I’d never get rid of it (note: I don’t swing the other way, but the same rule can be applied the other way around concerning men).
Given those circumstances, unless I were dating someone who is either still a virgin or at least hasn’t slept around with 30 different people (and how many people are out there today who have that kind of discipline?), I’d say not having kids or getting married in this social climate is pretty smart. I’m 36 and don’t need that kind of silly foolishness at this point in my life.
Hey, if people want to go that route, I’m not going to stop them, but I’m not going to engage in that behavior either. Like I said in another post, the more technologically modern we get, the more it seems that we revert to base animal instincts.
Gren, by your logic, we shouldn’t have a problem with little boys – or even men – peeing in public because the penis has both a sexual and a functional aspect. If we continue your line of thinking, men who are going to relieve themselves, as is natural and as they need to do, shouldn’t be subject to indecency statutes simply because society sexualises the penis.
Now, for the rest of y’all, this is obviously ridiculous. Maybe Gren will miss the problem, and, if so, the attempt at reasoning with him is my failure.
—
By the way, Gren, what makes you think that the anti-public-nudity crowd here does not know what it’s like to raise children? I’ve never had to change a baby’s diaper on a restaurant table – and it’s not for lack of children. I just wouldn’t turn the restaurant into a bathroom. Oddly enough, you and your compatriots disagree with the “breast feed in the bathroom” thing because no one wants to eat in a bathroom, but somehow miss that no one wants to eat in an area that a callous parent has turned into a bathroom.
Given those circumstances, unless I were dating someone who is either still a virgin or at least hasn’t slept around with 30 different people (and how many people are out there today who have that kind of discipline?), I’d say not having kids or getting married in this social climate is pretty smart. I’m 36 and don’t need that kind of silly foolishness at this point in my life.
I know quite a few people who have had the sense to not sleep around much, but that’s also a function of the people I know (no offence to you, Mat, at all): either very religious or very driven, and often from two-parent households. Frequently, women like that are passed over by other men because they won’t sleep around, so they end up dating even less than they would otherwise.
As for where to find women (or men) like this: try conservative public policy events. You’re on Cassy’s blog, so you obviously aren’t adverse to that viewpoint and do enjoy spending some of your spare time thinking about these issues.
/random cheerleading for other people’s love lives
“I know quite a few people who have had the sense to not sleep around much, but that’s also a function of the people I know (no offence to you, Mat, at all): either very religious or very driven, and often from two-parent households.”
None taken. I realize that not everyone does that, but it just seems that the majority do have that kind of lifestyle.
“Frequently, women like that are passed over by other men because they won’t sleep around, so they end up dating even less than they would otherwise.”
True, hence my note regarding if the roles were reversed. I’m not giving guys a pass on this because they tend to be some of the worst offenders of that lifestyle. Case in point: one of my male student workers (this was a year or so ago) came up to me and told me that he was getting a guide to being a gentlemen book. Ok fair enough, but then he added that he got it because he’ll “pick up more chicks that way.” I told him that being a gentleman is more of a state of mind than a way to get in the sack. My response totally went over his head. Then I told him he was an idiot.
“As for where to find women (or men) like this: try conservative public policy events. You’re on Cassy’s blog, so you obviously aren’t adverse to that viewpoint and do enjoy spending some of your spare time thinking about these issues.”
Perhaps, but my schedule makes it difficult to do that sort of thing. I’m not making excuses, I understood it when I took my job several years ago. There’s not a huge amount of stuff going on (at least that I’m aware of) in the area that I live and most of the campus stuff is unabashedly leftist (which I stay away from for obvious reasons).
On a side note, I was probably wrong about you (yes, I admitted it). Though I still disagree with several things you’ve said on other posts, it could have been done with less vehemence than was otherwise the case.
WayneB says: “ustin, a baby wallowing in crap needs to be changed and some restaurants don’t have changing facilities or bathrooms with enough counter space to change a baby upon.”
True, and when MY children were babies and I was in such a situation, I took them to the car to change them. Rain or shine, heat or cold. Open the back seat, spread out the changing mat, lay them down and get it done, then back into the restaurant easy pie.
WayneB says: Uh, easy AS pie.
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