micky says:

Unfortunately I doubt it will be stopped before its too late.
The bright side is that if they do pass it there will be 4 years of taxation and rise in projected costs before it even goes into effect giving Americans plenty of time to see just what pile of sht it is.
At that point establishing a conservative majority that can repeal the damn thing will be a cakewalk. America will learn a lesson at the expense of everyone probably for decades but at least the damn thing wont have legs anymore

Jane says:

I think the vote Saturday night showed the selfishness of the GOP. Not one Republican Senator could not be bothered with even opening up the floor to its discussion. Not one member of the GOP was open to even talking about this very important issue!!! This was truely telling to the American people. It shows the true obstructionist nature of the GOP and the fact that they have no compassion in their souls for those who suffer in this country. They value political shenanigans to providing services to Americans.

Ken says:

“Not one Republican Senator could not be bothered with even opening up the floor to its discussion. Not one member of the GOP was open to even talking about this very important issue!!! This was truely telling to the American people.”

Not as telling as all the democrats who are voting for the bill but admit they haven’t read it. Now THAT’S truly telling. Spare me your fake outrage, Jane.

micky says:

“We are pragmatists. ”

Right.
We cant afford it no matter how you present the numbers.
It must be paid for 5 years in advance before viable benefits are available to only 30% of the country.
As its being presented right now is unsustainable and will result if financial armegeddon, bankrupting and already bankrupt country even further.
China does not want to pick up any debt accrued as a result of healthare.
The projected deficit and debt is more than we can ever pay off.
No one can explain how its going to be paid for.
The majority of the people have said they dont want it.
Pragmatists dont take 1/2 a billion from medicare which is broke and failing to pay for another program based on the same financial principles.
You cried that 37 million needed it but instead want to shove it down everyones throat.

You’re not pragmatists by any stretch of the imagination.

“that they have no compassion in their souls for those who suffer in this country. They value political shenanigans to providing services to Americans.”

I guess being told the fact more than once now that conservatives and the religious right are the most charitable and giving demographic on the planet doesnt sink in yet ?
Its only your ignorance of statistical fact that allows you to keep spewing such idiotic nonsense.
Dont talk to us about compassion when its plainly obvious that your people have targeted a few misfortunates as a segway to generational theft and giving entitlements to a bunch of lazy broke shts who dont deserve it. Half of it being on the backs of seniors who’ve paid their whole life into a program they’ll now only be able to recieve half what they’re entitled to.
Compassion my ass. Millions of seniors will die early due to your greed and selfishness

Paul says:

This is all Kabuki Theater. Reid knows there will be blood in 2010 if there is no public option so he’ll get it – by hook or crook, most likely crook.

micky says:

Nice statement Pennie.
But I wouldnt be be so sure that there arent more dems on the take.
Many of them are looking for safeguards that will prevent their states from having to pick up any costs connected with the bill.
Then you have to remember that many of these people have no interst in anything other than their political careers regardless of the turmoil they’ll plummet the country into

Jared says:

It seems that many of the democratic senators believe this is a must-pass bill, but that including the public option will guarantee a failure. As a moderate liberal myself, I part ways with my more progressive bretheren in that I’d rather give up on the public option this time around then risk losing affordability and coverage for all. The public option has become a political football (thanks to the ineffective leadership of Harry Reid) that not only minimizes, but actually jeopardizes the heart of the of the bill which are its core provisions.

Jared says:

Micky sorry. I am not buying your GOP drivel. Nice try now go away like a good boy.

Jared says:

Scarlett I appreciate your enthusiasm but you are such a child. Do you read TPM? If so, you may have seen this:

“The Democrats lead on an initial generic Congressional ballot by 46%-38%. If they pass a health care with a public option, the gap becomes 46%-41%. If they don’t pass a health care bill at all, though, it becomes a 40%-40% tie — reminiscent of the loss in Democratic support in 1994, after they failed to pass a health care bill.”

////http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/11/poll-health-care-bill-could-hurt-dems—-and-not-passing-it-would-be-worse.php?ref=fpblg

I want a public option but I’m also a pragmatist. The Democrats’ chances in 2010 are worse if we pass a public option this time around. The Dem chances are a tie with Reps if they do nothing. If you really want to elect democrats and keep control, you would accept a bill, even if it doesn’t meet your standard of perfection. Now go take some Midol or something and retract the claws honey.

micky says:

“Micky sorry. I am not buying your GOP drivel. Nice try now go away like a good boy.”

Hey Jared.
Go fck yourself.
Thats was honest attempt at a legit conversation but it seems that when theres any hint of a compromise in there your true leanings pop out.
You’re by no means a “moderate” liberal and just a troll with a vocabulary if you cant even engage on that issue or answer my question.
And by the way, your stats are full of crap.
The democratic party, the healthcare bill(s) and your president are loosing support in all areas according to almost every poll as part of a three month trend.

Ken says:

“Well Ken it’s great that you can be so dismissive of me and other progressives on this forum. You have nothing to loose because you already lost! bwhahahahahahahahaahaha.”

Not at all. As I keep saying, if this disaster passes America loses. Your completely blind ignorance will wreck health care and the economy, but you’ll get to sleep better at night because you “think” you’ve done the right thing. That’s what it boils down to with all these liberals.

As far as being dismissive Scarlett, from the sound of it, you’ve dismissed the MAJORITY of the Americans who don’t want this plan, but never mind that, you know better. Pathetic.

Oh, I really like that “hahahahaha” part, it really seals the deal on your childish immaturity.

“STFU Jared. I don’t know you from a hole in the ground that I sh*t in when I camp. ”

That’s it, turn on each other!! Oh, beautiful!! Scarlett is such a brainwashed Obambot she’s trashing people who are likely to support her.

You just can’t fake ignorance like that.

Please democrats, continue to ignore what most Americans want, it will certainly be your destruction. Thank God.

kate says:

scarlett

as much as i enjoy watching you moonbats turn on each other like ravenous dogs, could you watch your language please? no personal attacks – don’t start them and don’t end them.

David says:

Once again, Jane misses the facts saying, “that they have no compassion in their souls for those who suffer in this country. They value political shenanigans to providing services to Americans.”

Micky correctly corrected her, noting: “I guess being told the fact more than once now that conservatives and the religious right are the most charitable and giving demographic on the planet doesnt sink in yet?”

Again, facts like that above deserve repeating. : ) !! …Just because Jane and her brethren IgNoRe the fact doesn’t diminish its truthfulness. CONSERVATIVES GIVE MORE – especially when no one’s looking. Sheesh, Jane.

We CARE. That’s why we don’t want this cr*p of a bill to pass. It’s for that VERY REASON – not because I “own stock in Pfizer” or some cr*p like that. Jeeez.

Dade says:

Kate, one thing of which we can all be certain is that Harry Reid knows how the US Senate works better than any of us.

The fact that Reid overcame the filibuster to allow debate to begin is a sure sign that Reid knows he can get Nelson, Lincoln, Landrieu, and, yes, even Stinky Joe to hold the line. He just has to find the right combination of “pressure and persuasion.”

When the health care bill passes (and it’s going to pass), the Democrats will trumpet it as a huge social welfare acheivment. And they’ll be right.

The Republicans have really screwed themselves on this. As the public health care system gets going, and people start liking it, no Republican will be able to use it as something to which he or she can point and say, “I, Senator Mitch McConnell, brought you this!”

Sure, Mary Landrieu took 300 million in pork –er, excuse me –in “federal assistance.” That’s the way politics works in this country. I didn’t hear you complaining when the Republicans were in charge.

lisab says:

the dems have a huge problem

the debt interest payments are about to explode.

sorry you dems … but it is true.

obama has spent you into a hole that you will not be able to hide.

don’t believe me? check the fed. they have run out of credit.

micky says:

” As the public health care system gets going, and people start liking it, ”

OMG I laughed so hard it hurt.
The more you guys try to shve this down our throats the more we hate it. Even a significant section on the left are asking how the hell the numbers are going to work when we have to pay 5 years into it before only 30% of the people are even eligible in 2014.
Puhleeese.

“If you haven’t noticed, I’ll be happy to point it out to you: it all comes down to money, honey. These United States aren’t a Christian nation, since we all know that Christ was more of a socialist than even Bernie Sanders. In America, God is Mammon.

Them’s the facts. Sorry if you don’t like ‘em.”

Those are not facts Dade, its pure bullsht.

Christ was an avid supporter of self reliance. You know, teaching people how to fish ? And yes, we are a predominantly Christian nation whos constitution was derived of Judeo Christian values by a majority of men who believed in God.

“And whenever the Republicans did step out of line, the conservative hoi polloi, who would eventually morph into today’s tea-baggers (like yourself, no doubt), were quick to hold their feet to the fire.”

heh, to bad its just not the tea partiers. Independents, moderate dems and fence sitters are all moving right. You congress would be elected out of office today if an election were held.

What makes your post really “ineffective” is its consistency with moonbat behavior No one around here is dropping their nuts in anyones mouth so lose the “teabagger” bullsht, kay ?

micky says:

“you and your party didn’t do a f*cking thing to change it when you had the chance.
Them’s the facts. Sorry if you don’t like ‘em.”

No, thats just more dung pulled outta your rear.
Theres a ton of quite factual examples of conservative policies that were implemented during the Bush adminsitration that went to correcting financial shortfalls.
Just ask and I’ll gladly supply the list.
The next time you chose to run off such an absurd statement you might want to check the transcripts from congress in 2007 where both McCain and Bush begged them to do something about the impending housing market collapse all the work of Frank, Schumer, Dodd, Clinton, F&F, the CRA etc…

No, sorry, them aint facts bro. Just a bunch of hyperbolic bull

Dade says:

Well, I’ve been engaged by both Micky and David. Sorry, Micky, but I’m just going to respond to David. You and I can have at it some other time.

Says David:

#1 – I am not a “tea-bagger”,
#2 – my fellow Americans who support fiscal responsibility & appropriate attention paid to appropriate matters are not “tea-baggers”,

So, I assume you support the new “war tax” proposed by David Obey? If we’re going to fight in Afghanistan, we should pay for it, right? No more keeping it off the federal budget like Junior Bush did when he got to play in his big boy suit in the Oval Office.

#3 – your referring to us Americans as “tea-baggers” shines a light on the very low regard with which you hold your fellow Americans.

Well, you got me there.

#4 – the Republicans are not “my party”.

Nor anybody’s apparently. If there are any political leaders held in lower esteem than congressional Democrats, they are congressional Republicans.

#5 – even the spending that WAS done over the last 8 years by the federal gov’t associated with NATIONAL DEFENSE is one of the items that the federal gov’t is SUPPOSED to address,

Yeah. Of course many would argue that the Iraq invasion had nothing at all to do with national defense and more to do with neo-conservative imperial ambitions. I’d be one of those.

But that isn’t really relevant to the matter at hand. Junior Bush and the Republicans kept war expenditures off the books and out of the federal budget. They did everything they could to make the war painless for as many people as possible. No new taxes. No military draft. Just make the military personnel and their families pay the price through stop-loss and revolving tours of duty. It was the politically expedient thing to do. Real Republican courage!

#6 – YES, I do hold my representatives feet to the fire – it’s what Americans are tasked to do, as a DUTY of their citizenship,

All I can say, then, is that I wish you had done your duty when Junior was “president.”

#7 – You may be “telling me the way that it is” but you tell it in a manner that indicates your complicity with that condition – meaning, YOU are PART of the PROBLEM!!!!

I may or may not be part of the problem. But that doesn’t change the fact that money is the oil that greases our political system. I’m no more complicit than you are. I have no money to speak of. I assume you don’t either. We’re just pawns, baby. Sorry if that breaks your heart.

#8 – I see & I know the problem of “the way that it is” but I WILL NOT DEFEND THAT BEHAVIOR and I will not support those that do & I will NOT look the other way or simply say or imply “Oh well, that’s just the way that it is”. The way that it is IS NOT THE WAY THAT IT SHOULD BE – nor is it the what that the Founding Fathers set up.

You’ll have to point out to me where I said that “this is the way it should be.” I’m a big time lefty. I won’t defend the “capitalist” system which establishes social and political rank purely on a material basis. It’s the old Ayn Rand hackery: there are people who matter and people who don’t.

And, please, don’t get all teary about your precious Founding Fathers, many of whom were just well-educated, tax-evading slave holders. There were some noble men among them (my favorite was John Adams) but there were also some very eloquent hypocrites (like Thomas Jefferson).

#9 – I’m pissed off because BOTH parties do NOTHING to change it! Us “tea-baggers” as you put it ARE TRYING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, Dade. We are trying to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT – and yet YOU demean and ridicule it. What does that say about YOU and YOUR positions, Dade?

Well, when the tea-baggers are being led by creatures like Dick Armey and Sarah Palin, it somewhat diminishes your claim that they are really trying to “do something about it.”

My favorite quote from tea-bagger Dick Armey comes from 1994, shortly after the Republicans took control of both houses of congress: “There’s an old adage. To the victor goes the spoils.”

What’s that tell you about the tea-baggers?

#10 – You can worship at your alter of MONEY if you want too, Dade. You can encourage or permit your representatives to worship at the alter of MONEY if you want to. I WILL NOT TOLERATE my representatives being permitted to do that without challenge. I will NOT quietly allow that to be the sole or main focus of me OR my representatives. You may counter that it’s not “YOU” that are worshiping at the alter of money but that you are just “pointing that out” for me. But your complicity is the problem.

Well, you better start cleaning up your own house then. Take a good look at the tea-bag leaders. They’re rotten as ten-day fish.

#11 – Your reference to the USA as not a “Christian nation” is generally accurate. The U.S. Constitution does not permit the Federal Congress to establish a National religion, true. But more often than not when one states that the USA is “not a Christian nation” they are attempting to de-emphasize the FACTS of the history of the founding of this nation. There is NO DENYING the history of the founding; or the inclination of the Founders; or the writings of those Founders…. or…. their general devotion to a Higher Power – which they FREQUENTLY REFERENCE! This nation was founded on VALUES and PRINCIPLES deeply understood by our Founders – who were overwhelmingly Christian. And those founding values are overwhelmingly Judeo-Christian.

Here are some quotes for you from the Founding Fathers about Christianity:

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.”
—Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794

“Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.” —Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794

“The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?”
—John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815

“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”
—Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

Plenty more where those came from.

#12 – In YOUR (Leftist) America, God is Mammon, perhaps. But don’t put that **** over on me or the rest of the nation.

You’ve got it backwards, honey. In my (leftist) America, human needs are more important than political power or accumulating massive fortunes. Capitalism is founded on the premise of capital. Do yourself a favor and read up on it.

#12 – Christ advocated for our SOULS. He did not advocate an earthly political system – not socialism, not communism, not capitalism. Christ advocated for PERSONAL charity & responsibility. As a matter of fact, it’s this PERSONAL charity & responsibility that I’m looking for in my elected representatives – representatives who will NOT do the things that these b*stards who are in there NOW are doing!!

Here’s some quotes attributed to Christ:

“In case some one of your brothers becomes poor among you in one of your cities, in your land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not harden your heart or be closefisted toward your poor brother. For you should generously open your hand to him and by all means lend him on pledge as much as he needs, which he is in want of… You should by all means give to him, and your heart should not be stingy in your giving to him, because on this account Jehovah your God will bless you in every deed of yours and in every undertaking of yours. For someone poor will never cease to be in the midst of the land. That is why I am commanding you, saying, ‘You should generously open up your hand to your afflicted and poor brother in your land.” (Deut 15:7-11).

Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” (Matt. 19:24)

#13 – Socialism and/or Communistic systems have two problems – 1) they try to work AGAINST the natural inclinations of human beings – to pursue more and better for ourselves and our children, and 2) due to these same inclinations just noted socialism & communistic systems: DO. NOT. WORK.

Lastly, on the subject of this Nation as it was founded:

“Our Constitution is designed only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for any other.”
– John Adams, Founding Father & President, USA

Doesn’t state which religion, does he? When you refer to Judeo-Christian values, you don’t seem to understand that Islam itself is founded on Judeo-Christian values.

You’d give your arguments a lot more weight with a little less emotional ranting, and a little more reading and research.

David says:

Dade,

“So, I assume you support the new “war tax” proposed by David Obey?”
YES!!! I’d rather be asked to pay a war tax than ANYTHING for:
– National Endowment for the Arts,
– Federal Health Insurance,
– Federal takeover of GM,
– Federal takeover of Chrystler,
– Federal payments to AIG,
– Federal payments to Petronas of Brasil for off-shore oil drilling in Brasil,
– Taxes & fees demanded by the pending Cap N Trade legislation,
– and on and on and on…
Will the dimwit David Obey stike a deal with me?? I’m not holding my breath.

“Of course many would argue that the Iraq invasion had nothing at all to do with national defense and more to do with neo-conservative imperial ambitions. I’d be one of those.”
‘Imperial ambitions’? To what end? Why do you believe that? What supports your acusation? We’re not getting their oil business. We’re not taking their oil unilaterally, either. We’re not moving US Citizens there to settle. We’re not grabbing their sand to support the “US glass industry”, either. As a matter of fact, we’re losing OUR MOST PRECIOUS POSSESSION – our citizens – in the matter.

“All I can say, then, is that I wish you had done your duty when Junior was ‘president.’ ”
What evidence have you that I did not do my “duty when Junior was ‘president.’ ?” None. That is a baseless and unsupportable (and incorrect) statement.

“You’ll have to point out to me where I said that “this is the way it should be.”
I did not say that YOU said that “this is the way it should be.” Read more closely.

“Well, when the tea-baggers are being led by creatures like Dick Armey and Sarah Palin, it somewhat diminishes your claim that they are really trying to “do something about it.”
Dade, dade, dade… again with the sexual slurs… how disappointing… For your information, the Tea Party movement is a grass roots movement (regardless of what Pelosi lied about) and Little Dick Armey has NOTHING to do with it – other than his desire to hitch his carcas to the movement in hopes to obtain some points like a parasite. And Sarah Palin seems to be just “calling them like she sees ’em”. INDEPENDENTLY. Her ENTIRE LIFE and CAREER are filled with INDEPENDENT-acting decisions and moves. She isn’t tied to the Tea Party movement with any significance, either. IT’S GRASS ROOTS – WE THE PEOPLE are what make up the movement. Not some brain dead politicians.

“Here are some quotes for you from the Founding Fathers about Christianity:”
So am I to understand that there are no references to ‘Divine Providence’ in the Declaration of Independence, et al.?

“That is why I am commanding you, saying, ‘You should generously open up your hand to your afflicted and poor brother in your land.’ ”
Where in your bible quotes does it say that the GOVERNMENT is supposed to take money and give it to someone else?? (And, when the government does, it does so inefficiently – DIMINISHING the effectiveness. And, in the words of the Left, allowing for “thousands of poeple to die”.)

“…human needs are more important than political power or accumulating massive fortunes.”
Yes, human needs are more important that acquiring money or power – too bad your government-led ideas do more harm than good to the ENTIRE NATION when implemented. When all of this “government spending” causes the USA to declare bankrupcy we’re ALL up s**t creek! Get it?

“Take a trip to Denmark or Sweden or Norway sometime.”
I guess you’ll be moving to one of those enormously populated countries like Sweden then, Dade? You know, the countries that come up with all of the medical R&D (NOT) that help keep people alive.? Don’t let the door hit you on the *** on the way.

“…you don’t seem to understand that Islam itself is founded on Judeo-Christian values. ”
Dade, I didn’t say anything AGAINST Islam, now, did I? I didn’t say anything against Hinduism, either, did I? Nor did I dis Buddism. I didn’t mention any of those at all. I simply echoed by John Adam’s quote that the US is designed for a moral and religious people; and I presented that the US was founded on Judeo-Christian values through other references to clarify the facts. The fact that Islam is founded on Judeo-Christian values is just “more the merrier” as far as I’m concerned. It doesn’t matter to the record of the history of the Nation. But, since you brought it up, Dade, do you know why the line “to the shores of Tripoli” is in the Marine anthem???

Lastly, I could do without your smug quips.

Ken says:

“Republicans took control of both houses of congress: “There’s an old adage. To the victor goes the spoils.”

What’s that tell you about the tea-baggers?”

I guess it tells me that the dems are acting exactly like they were back then and, as usual, you give a pass to the dems when they do it, but only get “outraged” when Republicans do it.

Thanks for proving my point.

David says:

Dade, for your info. I’ve traveled plenty. Been to your treasured Europe four times.

Dade says:

David, I agree with your sentiment.

Ken, all of us operate from positions we can’t completely defend. There is plenty of hypocrisy to go around. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: The Democrats are spineless, hypocritical cowards. There one meager virtue is that they are slightly better than the Republicans.

micky says:

“The Democrats are spineless, hypocritical cowards. There one meager virtue is that they are slightly better than the Republicans.”

I fail to see how anything could be worse than being a spineless hypocritical coward.

“. With Dick Cheney as its CEO, Halliburton was on the verge of bankruptcy.

2. George W. Bush appointed Dick Cheney to head up an exploratory committee to find a running mate.

3. The committee chose Dick Cheney.

4. Upon assuming office, Dick Cheney convened an energy policy task force, the members of which remain hidden from public knowledge.

5. Shortly thereafter, White House rhetoric was aimed at Saddam Hussein and Iraq.

6. Our country was attacked by terrorists on September 11, 2001.

7. Key members of the Bush administration (including Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush, and Rice) began advocating an invasion of Iraq to “protect” the United States from terrorist attacks.

8. George W. Bush ordered the United States military to invade Iraq in March, 2003.

9. Halliburton was awarded multi-billion dollar federal contracts without being subjected to competitive bidding.

10. Dick Cheney (who was still being awarded a deferred salary from Halliburton) and his cohorts got rich(er).

Now do you get it?”

Obviously you dont.
I trashed that little list of yours a couple weeks ago to where many of the statements were answered with a simple “so what?” or relevant facts debunking them but you keep posting it as if it had some truth, relevance or significance.

“Well, now we’re getting to the root of the problem. You want to spend money for wars, I want to spend it on social welfare.”

No, the real problem is that its not “social welfare”.
Its socialism period.
Taking the majorities money for one common issue such as a war that the majority agreed upon is a far different application that rediistributing wealth to each individual need for a bunch of loafers when the majority of the country says they dont approve of that program.
Besides that, we all know that this is not about any form of social justice as much as it is about one party gaining control of the people.
The CICs first commitment is to protect Americans from harm, its enemies.
Giving them abortions, houses and healthcare ?
Not so much.