kate says:

You know Cassy it’s easy for this person to be a computer commando – hurling ridiculous insults like this – when all they probably have is life in mommy’s basement, scratching themselves all day. Pathetic really.

Oh and I am quite certain that if they were in trouble, say a foreign country that was breaking down all around them, they would cry for the US Marines to come save them. And the Marines would.

Corrie says:

Good Job Cassy! Obviously someone with a low IQ and too much time on their hands!

Wendell Finner says:

The user name is certainly accurate!

bob says:

And remember, your fiance is protecting even cowards like this jackass. whoever he is…

WayneB says:

Well, sounds like he’s in like company with one of the counter-protesters at the Cincinnati Tax Day Tea Party. This wonderful font of intellectualism was holding a sign outside that said, “If you’re not pro-choice, f*** yourself!”

While not approaching the level of viciousness that your commenter did, I would hazard a guess that he would probably have agreed with it.

Kassey says:

Pray for their soul.. they will never know the love of our precious Lord.

Living and Breathing says:

Very good, Crush Liberalism! You’ve got that right!

salome says:

Hi Cassy,
I am sorry that people have sent you hate mail, but I have to disagree with your position.
I am 24. At 21 I had an abortion. The pregnancy was unintentional and I was on birth control at the time (no I was not missing pills). My boyfriend was very supportive, until he called me five months after it happened out of the blue and said that he had met someone else and would be leaving me.
I have never made any better decision than to have this abortion. I was horrified that my ex boyfriend wouldnt talk to me, and the ensuing evidence that he had been cheating on me. But it would have been worse if a child were involved. I cannot imagine my shame at having to tell a child that his/her father had been such a asshole, and that they would never be around to know him. While speaking to the ex boyfriend for the last time, I asked him if it would have been different, if we had had the child. He said no, not at all.
Someday, if I am lucky I will find a guy who is deserving of my children, and will not leave them to suffer. I dont think it is right to raise a child without parents.
I dont believe killing a mass of cells smaller than my fingernail is killing a person. That is my opinion.
Anyway, assuming that “maybe” youre right and it was a “person”:
Before abortion was legal, before the modern era -infanticide was common. In fact, in “uncivilized” places like China, infanticide is still going on.
If you think infanticide never happened- look at the historical record- its been recorded in Europe, Asia and Africa- basically everywhere that humans have lived and in some cases has been happening into the modern era. So isnt abortion better than infanticide? At least its not killing a born person. Would you feel worse smashing the head of an infant on a stone, or looking at a few cells in a petri dish?
And plus, the embryo inside of me was 6 weeks old. Everyone is joking themselves if they dont think I couldnt have killed it. If I had got really drunk, starved myself, eaten some weird herbs.. im pretty sure I could have caused a miscarriage. It just would have been dangerous.
I have a right to bodily safety- I have a right to choose. (just like you, only I choose yes, you choose no)
To this day, from the day of the abortion, 2 years ago, I have never had any regrets.

I support your fiance who is fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq, but remember that he is also fighting for freedom of others who are different than you. (isnt that what a democracy is-pluralism?..isnt that the essence of what is worth fighting for?)
I respect your decision that abortion is wrong. Please respect mine.
sincerely yours,
salome

Daredevil says:

And let me add that if the boyfriend did what you state he did- he deserves to be in large responsible for the death of your child as well. Real men don’t do what he did.

Larry says:

Sorry to see that some troll has sent you an email filled with grammatically incorrect insults. It was obviously written (poorly) by a coward. Anyone sending anonymous emails of this type are truly cowards. They don’t have the seeds to stand up face to face to speak their mind so they hide behind the Internet and throw stones like an immature child.

God bless you Cassy.

Daredevil says:

To be fair, prochoicers are not the only ones who make trollish comments.

I got accused while posting as Punisher on a prolife blog of being into apostate church or lukewarm church, since I took issue with some prolifers thinking it is ok to disrupt churches to try to get message across or trying to bother churches to get them to tell what their stances on the issues are. I was told and accused (falsely) of things like I don’t care about God, church, the unborn, etc., etc., etc., and I should stop writing gibberish and go to dead churchs where my comments will be well-taken.

Yeah, some diehard prolife posters can make equally idiotic and hateful comments.

Needless to say I give this poster, Ed, a piece of my mind here:

http://www.jillstanek.com/the-voluntary-abortion-of-amer.html#comments

salome says:

Also to clarify to Daredevil- the boyfriend had not left at the time of the abortion, that was later. And if you think pregnancy isnt dangerous, I dont know what kind of science education youve been getting, because abortion is actually safer than pregnancy, pregnancy is a relatively dangerous condition of being alive (not saying that it isnt justified if one wants children), especially for someone like me that has medical conditions.
Please read more carefully before you judge a situation and box it into your neat “evil” category.

Daredevil says:

“First of all, I think daredevil is a man, and if a man had to choose between carrying a fetus for 9 months and putting himself in harms way, I dont know if many would.In fact, if a man was able to get pregnant, abortion would probably have been legal long before.”

I am a man. Who cares?

It has nothing to do with whether or not abortion is murder.

It is just the tired and same intellectually dishonest trump card prochoicers play, feeding into the perception abortionists hate men that much to want to play that card.

The problem with this argument is many prolifers are women and many prochoicers are MEN.

And I did not say anything about my stance on abortion in case of harm or possible death to mother. I AM FOR THOSE EXCEPTIONS.

Try a different argument. The it’s about men thing on opposing abortion don’t wash at all.

Daredevil says:

“Jesus said: He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Let you all, whoever you are, think about your own sins that you know for sure are sins that you yourself have done and stop worrying and judging other people so much.”

You are totally distorting what Jesus said.

He opposed self-righteous judgments of what others do.

What He did not do is oppose us taking stand for social justice, though he and the church themselves did not do so.

What He did not do is tell us to say sin is not sin.

In fact, He derided Pharisees and others for overturning God’s law. He warned against folks who will call evil good and good evil. He told us to beware of such false teachers and prophets.

So to say that since Jesus said those who are without sin cast the first stone mean we cannot call sin what it is or murder what it is is to in fact distort what He said.

In actuality, you cannot even follow your own line of thinking there, since you yourself are judging here, too. Is not telling folks they are being self-righteous judging on your part? Or throwing stones on your part? Are you without sin?

See how your own arguments can come back to bite you?

By your logic, abolitionists should never take up cause against slavery, since they would be throwing stones, when they themselves were not sinless and since they would be worrying about other people and not focus on themselves.

The part you missed is what Jesus said next to the woman: “go and SIN NO MORE.”

He was in no way condoning the idea that if we see something is wrong, we cannot say it is wrong.

Daredevil says:

“I am content to face god (if he exists) for my actions. If I have committed an offense to God, let God punish me, not humans. Anyway, after all what do we know- we spend all our time worrying about other people’s sins and hatreds and judging them without looking at ourselves.”

So if we go by how we are suppose to act, then we should legalize all things, even murder, rape, theft, kidnapping, enslaving, assault, etc., because we should let God judge our actions and not humans?

Daredevil says:

Salome: I cannot be charged with “harming a fetus” because an embryo that is six weeks old is not a person in law ( I know you think it should be, but I think you should also consider why it is not in the books as a law to harm a sex week old fetus…).

Me: More:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unborn_Victims_of_Violence_Act

The Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004 (Public Law 108-212) is a United States law which recognizes a “child in utero” as a legal victim, if he or she is injured or killed during the commission of any of over 60 listed federal crimes of violence. The law defines “child in utero” as “a member of the species Homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb”.[2]

The law is codified in two sections of the United States Code: Title 18, Chapter 1 (Crimes), §1841 (18 USC 1841) and Title 10, Chapter 22 (Uniform Code of Military Justice) §919a (Article 119a).

The law applies only to certain offenses over which the United States government has jurisdiction, including certain crimes committed on Federal properties, against certain Federal officials and employees, and by members of the military. In addition, it covers certain crimes that are defined by statute as federal offenses wherever they occur, no matter who commits them, such as certain crimes of terrorism.

Because of principles of federalism embodied in the United States Constitution, Federal criminal law does not apply to crimes prosecuted by the individual states. However, 34 states also recognize the fetus or “unborn child” as a crime victim, at least for purposes of homicide or feticide.[3]

Daredevil says:

In regards to your claims no pain felt by unborn, here is the rebuttal to that:

http://www.mccl.org/Page.aspx?pid=298

Surgeons entering the womb to perform corrective procedures on tiny unborn babies have seen those babies flinch, jerk and recoil from sharp objects and incisions.

“The neural pathways are present for pain to be experienced quite early by unborn babies,” explains Steven Calvin, M.D., perinatologist, chair of the Program in Human Rights Medicine, University of Minnesota, where he teaches obstetrics.

Medical facts of fetal pain

Anatomical studies have documented that the body’s pain network—the spino-thalamic pathway—is established by 20 weeks gestation.

• “At 20 weeks, the fetal brain has the full complement of brain cells present in adulthood, ready and waiting to receive pain signals from the body, and their electrical activity can be recorded by standard electroencephalography (EEG).”
— Dr. Paul Ranalli, neurologist, University of Toronto

• An unborn baby at 20 weeks gestation “is fully capable of experiencing pain. … Without question, [abortion] is a dreadfully painful experience for any infant subjected to such a surgical procedure.”
— Robert J. White, M.D., PhD., professor of neurosurgery, Case Western University

Unborn babies have heightened sensitivities

Unborn babies at 20 weeks development actually feel pain more intensely than adults. This is a “uniquely vulnerable time, since the pain system is fully established, yet the higher level pain-modifying system has barely begun to develop,” according to Dr. Ranalli.

“Having administered anesthesia for fetal surgery, I know that on occasion we need to administer anesthesia directly to the fetus, because even at these early gestational ages the fetus moves away from the pain of the stimulation,” stated David Birnbach, M.D., president of the Society for Obstetric Anesthesia and Perinatology and self-described as “pro-choice,” in testimony before the U.S. Congress.

Given the medical evidence that unborn babies experience pain, compassionate people are viewing abortion more and more as an inhumane and intolerable brutality against defenseless human beings.

The unborn baby at 20 weeks

Fetal development is already quite advanced at 20 weeks gestation:

• The skeleton is complete and reflexes are present at 42 days.

• Electrical brain wave patterns can be recorded at 43 days. This is usually ample evidence that “thinking” is taking place in the brain.

• The fetus has the appearance of a miniature baby, with complete fingers, toes and ears at 49 days.

• All organs are functioning—stomach, liver, kidney, brain—and all systems are intact at 56 days.

• By 20 weeks, the unborn child has hair and working vocal cords, sucks her thumb, grasps with her hands and kicks. She measures 12 inches.

Abortion at 20 weeks

Despite the unborn child’s advanced development at 20 weeks, the following painful abortion procedures are used:

• Partial-birth abortion (D&X): The unborn baby is delivered feet first, except for the head, which is punctured at the base of the skull with a sharp object. The brain is then suctioned out, killing the child. (This method was outlawed in the United States in 2007.)

• Dilation and Evacuation (D&E): Sharp-edged instruments are used to grasp, twist and tear the baby’s body into pieces, which are then removed from the womb.

• Saline abortion: Salt water is injected into the womb through the mother’s abdomen. The unborn baby swallows this fluid, is poisoned and dies in a process that sometimes takes 24 hours. The toxic saline solution causes severe burns over the unborn child’s entire body.

Minnesota law recognizes fetal pain

MCCL helped to pass Minnesota’s Woman’s Right to Know law in 2003, which, among other things, informs women that their unborn child can feel pain at 20 weeks gestation. MCCL also strongly supported the Unborn Child Pain Prevention Act, which became state law in 2005. The law requires that abortionists and referring physicians inform women that pain-reducing medication is available for their unborn baby. Pregnant women must sign a form to either request or refuse the administration of pain-reducing drugs to their unborn child prior to an abortion.

Daredevil says:

“And yes I could have put the baby to adoption, but that would have been no guarantee that it would have a good life, in fact I could unknowingly contribute to its abuse (there are adopted children that are abused and raped in higher numbers than biological children are- just look at the headlines).”

And it is not guarantee the child would have a good life even if born to loving parents, so let’s abort the child, right?

Your reasoning no matter how spin it is not about your care for the child. It is disingenous to say it is.

If you care about the child, you would not want to harm the child in the first place.

Cannot have it both ways- cannot say you don’t want the child to point you have to end the child’s life then turn around and express concern that the child will grow up suffering abuse from others.

Your reasoning is purely narcissism- it is I don’t want the child but if I cannot raise the child, then no one else can and the child is better off dead.

salome says:

I had an abortion in one of the states listed as protecting the right of unborn. I regret that I was not a strong enough person to stand up in a court of law and defend my rights as a person.
Actually, if I remember correctly looking at the law in the state that I had the abortion in it does say that the law should not be an impediment to women desiring to have an abortion at their own expense but the responsibility rests with the woman, to prove that a law is onerous. By the “law” you are so lovingly upholding, it in itself justifies my claim that you as a male would not understand.

I am not saying that men should not have an opinion about abortion, Im just saying that there is that saying” dont judge a man (or woman in this case but Im not really one of those liberals that people here seem to so detest that says that you have to make language pc) until you walk a mile in his shoes” cant apply to you since you will never become a woman.
Im not really claiming I did it for the child. I did it for myself. I am a person, and unlike my potential infant, I can THINK. I DECIDED (unlike the embryo) that I did not want to have a child.

And also, stop using the law as the beacon of what is “right”. The law is what is fought for over the years, and it changes. (yes..for people who have very concrete black and white minds this might come as a shock…). Plus, you disregard other countries laws which uphold the right of abortion. I am a Canadian as well as American citizen. As a Canadian- I have the right to have an abortion, (at the government’s expense in fact..but lets not even go there) so is it fair that in the US I am not allowed? I think you should stick to your own morality rather than trying to prove what law does or doesnt say.

There were people that had abortions before abortion was legal (yes in the US,,, not just in the “uncivilised” countries that I listed before like “old Europe” and china) and if it becomes illegal again, I can guarantee there will be people having abortions after as well. Frankly, if I had found myself in that situation, I could easily have flown to Canada and got an abortion for free. If Canada did not have legal abortions, I would have gone further, and paid more money.
Where theres a will, theres a way.

Why not make it easier for people in a difficult situation, that make a different decision than you and let them choose what they want to choose, in a safe manner. Is it better to have two people (one according to me) dead from a back alley abortion, or one? By your own calculus you seem to imply that you dont want more people to die, so why would you want me to die getting a back alley abortion, when I am a person (in addition to the mass of cells which you seem to think is more important than me).

Also, all your statistics about what a fetus feels at 20 weeks is different than six weeks. (Not that I would support banning abortion at 20 weeks, but Im just saying you cant say the two are completely analogous) And by saying that you are for abortion in the case of the safety of the mother, where do you draw the line? Is having type I diabetes enough, since I would be at risk for a wide variety of complications that others wouldnt? What about a pregnancy that is positioned dangerously in the womb and might cause internal bleeding to the mother? I think it is rarely a black and white situation where the question is” do we abort the fetus because the mother will CERTAINLY die, or do we save the mother?”
There is a continum of risk, at a point where the mother (and her partner if she has one) has to decide “this is too dangerous, we dont want to take this risk” But what if another woman DID decide to take the risk, and then had a normal baby? Was the first woman “murdering” the child because she was concerned for her own welfare? and the second woman wasnt? Or were they both making a calculated risk assessment.

About miscarriages involving the death of unborn- of course they do…but they are also quite natural, despite the fact that they may be unwanted. Women will quite naturally try to control when they have children too (as unfortunate as that is to some people), and sometimes mistakes do happen…

And the logic about making murder legal because god will judge murderers so we shouldnt is also faulty. A murderer can still be a Christian because he might sincerely repent his sins before god (ironically this is one of the problems I have with Christianity so you cant say that I am saying this because I am a murderer). So yes, we make laws to prevent murder…but we also try to allow people to care for themselves, buy their own houses, cars, marry who they choose as long as they arent harming anyone else.
I recognize that you think I was harming another person, but I believe that I was excerising free will, which is a right that god gave me. If you have never thought about any of the complexities that are involved in defining what a person is and who has the right to decide, and allowing other people to make difficult decisions, I think you might be as guilty as I am before god because you arent really THINKING, just maybe believing some priest. (I dont really think you are not thinking, Im just saying someone who repeats dogmatically that the unborn are alive and have rights is)

We dont read law books to get answers about life so I dont really find quoting laws on wikipedia especially convincing.

I would like to know what you propose to do about back alley abortions that are a danger to the mother, and how you think they would ever be prevented given the fact that there is evidence of abortion in all societies at all points in history. What would you propose happens to someone like me, that is willing to put myself in mortal danger because I do not want to have a child? Is it right to condemn me as well as the unborn child to death because I will have an abortion?

Also, assuming that you were a female, and you found yourself in a situation similar to mine – a college student, lets say no boyfriend, not wanting to have a kid, realizing that your ability to make money, pay bills etc would be greatly diminished if you had the child, and that even not having work for a number of months while pregnant (assuming that you were going to give the child up for adoption) would put you behind on bills. What would you do? Would you tell your parents, burden them when they are having trouble keeping up on bills?

Maybe I am guilty of being egotistical. But so are A LOT of other people in this country. (I think one in six pregnancies results in abortion)?
Because people like you that denounce human behavior as criminal, you delegitimize a lot of people’s experiences. You make us afraid to talk about it. Something that is human becomes something that is “evil” (even though it seems to be happening QUITE a lot to be EVIL).

I am positive that you have met women who have had an abortion before, and never known it. It might even be women that you know and respect.
I am a single voice in the dark of night, a faceless person on the internet to tell you that we are out there… and we are people just like you and maybe we are egoists. But self preservation and a desire to live how you choose.. Thats an egoism that a lot of people are going to buy into.

Daniel says:

I have type I diabetes and it would have been very hard for me to control my diet while I was in college, and more dangerous than for other people to be pregnant.

You’ve used the Bible to support your arguments, so I’m guessing you believe it. Do you believe that God is in control? If so, then you must believe that He allowed you to become pregnant in spite of the preventative measures you were taking. What would you have learned from that situation? How blessed would a barren family have been with a different decision?

I guess we’ll never know.

My wife was told “you need to terminate this pregnancy – there is no way your kidneys can do it” early in her 3rd pregnancy. That 6-week-gestational embryo turned 5 back in February. Just because things look bleak doesn’t mean they are bleak. Unexpected blessings are just that – unexpected. The lyrics to the currently-popular song “What Faith Can Do” by Kutless say, at one point, “you gotta face the cloud to find the silver lining.”

Sure, Romans 8:28 is still in the Book, and what’s done is done. But, looking back, aren’t you the least bit curious how God would have provided for you had your decision been different?

Daredevil says:

“And the logic about making murder legal because god will judge murderers so we shouldnt is also faulty.”

It is faulty. It is PRECISELY MY POINT. It is SAME LOGIC you used on abortion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

salome says:

no one has answered my questions yet: what do you do about people that are going to have abortions regardless of rules. Do you let them die from back alley abortions or trying to self medicate themselves? Doesnt that make you the implicit murders of women who die in this manner? Is it better to have one “person” dead, or two?

Also Daredevil, you didnt answer my hypothetical question about what you would do if you were a college student short on money and pregnant.

It seems like a lot of the people here who are so concerned about making abortion illegal are not very interested in making the reasons that people have abortions less problematic- single parents do earn a lot less money and in fact many of them live in poverty, the adoption system is broken and there is rampant abuse in it, there is a lot of stigma about people getting pregnant when theyre not married (as can be seen from the comment one poster made about how ‘you shouldnt have sex…well most people dont do that), it is hard for a college student to get a good paying job that would support a child these days.

I rarely hear people who are against abortion talking about how they go volunteer with single moms and have abused foster children living in their house. Maybe some of you all do…but Im not counting on it.

salome says:

Mat your quote :”I’m doing my part to not have kids. I’m doing this by not having sex outside of a relationship and given the collective stupidity out there, I’m not really all that enthusiastic about getting into one.” Demonstrates a strange cynicism about the world. If you are so pro life (not just about embryos but life in general)… it doesnt seem like you see much beauty in the other people around you.
Also, your quote demonstrates the exact position I was placed in: I was not having sex outside of a relationship, I waited to get into a relationship until I thought I was in a relationship that may have meaningful ends (yes, I admit I was engaging in “premarital” sex…but so are some of the other people who are against abortion. Not that Im trying to direct criticism away from myself..) and I was using birth control. At a doctors advice I was not using condoms as an additional precaution. Does that mean its the doctor’s fault and not mine? I took his advice and followed it…. ( I dont really think this though. I do take personal responsibility for my actions, even if science was supposed to prevent them.
Also, for those of you who say “according to the Orthodox Jewish perspective.. Catholic perspective..” you stated that there are SOME cases where abortion is permissible, but what are those cases? Whose to determine these cases? Some men in a dark room prying into a girl’s personal life?
Who better but the girl herself?

Saying that abortion is murder is somewhat of a red herring because murder means killing someone that can survive on their own, abortion means killing someone that needs the woman to survive and prosper.

So abortion would be more like a debate centering on killing one conjoined twin to save the other child who has more of a real chance of survival. But youre still killing that one, but by killing one your give the other a chance.

You cant say abortion is murder because murder means killing someone who can survive and at least breathe on their own accord. (I would say killing a new born infant is murder) .
That is why I am bringing up individual rights in terms of abortion, because if you have an embryo living and feeding inside of you and taking your nutrients… it is your right to decide what to do. Maybe some people would “choose” to commmit suicide if there were no other options. But that is still a choice (just read 1984 if you dont believe me).

All of you say that you are not judging others, but by your words, you are judging others- to be irresponsible whores and immoral, irreligious people.

“Why should I, who am being very responsible, have to pay for someone else’s irresponsible mistake (or a slew of them)?”

This just demonstrates the twisted logic of people who believe abortion is wrong- they claim that we live in a “community” and that they CARE about the “murdered” children. But then the children are born and they turn their backs on them and say “you are bastard, sick children, get away from me!!!”

The truth of the matter is I think a lot of people who are against abortion are really just against sexuality. They find it frightening to look down and actually see a penis or a vagina in front of them!!!!

People that do have abortions… most of them I think, at least I did think about it. And it was a hard decision (that I still dont regret). If everyone minded their own business it would make it a lot easier for people in a difficult situation to do what they feel they need to do.

And if you still believe abortion is wrong: why not start taking responsiblity for the COMMUNITY that you believe should exist and start working hard to help out single moms, advocate for fairer pay and take foster children in.
Then, maybe,,, just maybe fewer people would choose to have an abortion.

Daredevil says:

“That is usually a parting shot used by pro-choicers when they’re losing an argument.”

Yep, and it is validation that they are indeed into abortion for no matter what the reason is, including having all the sex one wants, without consequences, and all the abortions one can use to continue with all the sex.

It is like you said dishonest claim prochoicers make about those they disagree with them that actually reflect worse on them than those they accuse even if those false accusations are true!

The other false accusation I see is the claim prochoicers make that prolifers don’t care for life after birth.

Funny, prolifers are proactive in groups like Habitat for Humanity, Compassion, Harvest, World Vision, etc., etc., feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, caring for orphans, looking after abused women and children. Pro-choicers don’t even come close to the level of humanitarian levels that prolifers got.

Daredevil says:

“I did not help birth those kids, therefore I should not be beholden to care for them.”

The irony of it all is that while moral conservatives think they should not be beholden to care for kids like that, the truth is out of compassion many times moral conservatives do give time and money to help unfortunate ones like that!

As said before the liberals and moral relativists got nothing on moral conservatives on these things.

Mat says:

“where are your statistics to prove that “conservatives” give more to charity? Daredevil: where are your statistics to prove that “conservatives” give more to charity? I think there are some statistics to show that, but I doubt if you can prove it completely cuz its hard to say completely whose conservative and whose not.”

Actually, there was a book on this and the statistics do show that in general, conservatives are more charitable than liberals. I’m sure if you look that up on the web, that data will show up. And if there are statistics, then it’s a pretty good indication that this is a proof. Seriously, where do you get your arguing skills? You’re basically admitting that the stats are out there, but since they don’t conform to your way of thinking, then they should just be dismissed. How, er, rational.

” And you still havent answered my question about what you would do if you were a pregnant college student who was short on cash (other than to say that you dont have sex so would not be in this position).”

Actually, I think we did answer this and for you to say that simply not having sex is not an option, then I call that total and complete bullshit. No one is putting a gun to your head to have sex. That is an absolute matter of choice. Yes, you can rut like animals I suppose, but I think humans (well some, anyway) have reasoning capacity. Again, I don’t think that’s my problem if you got knocked up when you should have been studying. Next time, try getting a bit more willpower and not using the Freudian Id.

“But lets assume you were. What would you do?”

Again, you’ve totally missed the point. If you’re in that kind of a situation, lack of cash and in college, then you probably should be doing something else than sleeping around. You know, think about the consequences ahead of time?

“And what about the back alley abortions? Why should two people be forced to die?”

I wasn’t aware that anyone was “forced to die.” Quit being so melodramatic.

“Mat has incriminated himself by saying that the community has to “take care of itself” which doesnt really make sense if the community is made up of people that are individuals.”

Incriminated myself? How so? My point was that a community should act responsibly and understand that all actions have consequences. Note the root word of community is “commune” (which also goes hand in hand with communism). The word community is a catchphrase that has been grabbed by liberals to justify every irresponsible act by someone so that someone else has to pay for it. That has nothing to do with the individual. Being an individual is “one”. That means you deal with your problems without dragging the rest of us in. Now, if I choose to help out, then that’s my CHOICE. What you want is an act of compulsion by the government (i.e. forcing me to pay for an abortion that I neither desired nor even had any part of) to help pay for your mistake. You want an abortion, whatever, but don’t make me pay out of my federal tax dollars to support it.

“I think that both of you have a tendency to claim anything you dislike is “liberal” or “feminist” as a way to get away from the point.”

Uh, liberalism and feminism are huge champions of the pro-abortion issue. Conservatives tend to be either anti-abortion or not really committed. That is a fact. Both daredevil and I have stayed on course with the argument the whole time (though we’re coming from different angles), while you keep changing yours to try to meet the argument (which, BTW is a pretty standard liberal tactic: they argue something, get hammered on it, and then change the subject).

“The fact that you claim my argument is “emotional” and yours is rational is an effective way to reduce what Im saying to a “lower” level and believe that you are at a “higher” level of reasoning.”

Ok, you’re the one flipping out about people dying and crying the sad song of how you can’t stop having sex. That is not the thinking of the brain. That’s the thinking of the heart (at best) and simple animal instinct (at worst). Sorry, but that is emotional thinking. When you come here and honestly state that not only it’s a-ok to just abort away (seriously, if you have the health problems you claim, then maybe you should be backing off the sex a bit) or that I’m obligated to pay for your mistake. Yeah, that’s harsh, but I’m pretty sick of listening to “compassion to the point of stupidity” argument every time I turn around.

“Personally I dont see what is so emotional about what Im saying, but neither is inhumane thinking so I think it should be addressed as such.”

Inhumane? You’re the one aborting kids. Not me. I’m not having them in the first place. Let me give you a very brutal example of what I’m saying. You spread your legs, get pregnant and then want to abort. I keep my zipper up (no matter what my biology wants), not have kids and not worry about it. There, argument closed.

“( I also dont think it is lost on anyone that “emotional” is the feminine and “rational” is the masculine emotion– so congradulations Mat on being so masculine!).”

You’re the one who said that, not me. There are plenty of libtard mangina males who think the same way. There are also women like Cassy who tend to be very rational. Again, you drew conclusions that were not there. Liberalism tends to think more emotionally than Conservatism.

“FYI I dont really consider myself a feminist, so that neat little category fails to define me as you wished.”

Well, you keep thinking that. Your comments suggest otherwise.

Daredevil says:

“Saying that abortion is murder is somewhat of a red herring because murder means killing someone that can survive on their own, abortion means killing someone that needs the woman to survive and prosper.”

Someone that the woman put in there in the first place of being in position to depend on her by her action called sex.

If someone falls out into a lake by accident and I am there, legally I am not required to go rescue that person, though morally that would be the right thing to do. On the other hand, if I physically out of malice push the person into the lake and the person cannot swim, I would be both legally and morally require to go rescue the person. That is because I put the person in position of depending on me. And I left the person drown, you can bet the law would have me behind bars- as the proper recourse for murder.

Kupocygirl says:

Wow this may be a year old but awesome job on Mat and Daredevil 😀 I hate it when some people try to sugarcoat what they did and just see it as if it was nothing and just plainly screwed up.

“And I know that the child would have been 2 years old. And you know what else? I dont bloody care that much. I still think I did the right thing.” Bitch and that’s why I cannot, I simply cannot think that you’re a person. Yes, I said bitch so what? Ever heard of self-control? And if not family would’ve been there to help, that’s what family does. But pride must have hit ya eh?