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If you want to make a feminist scream, treat her with courtesy, manners, and chivalry. Time and time again, they’ve done all they can to eliminate the horrors of chivalry in modern society. Men who are chivalrous towards feminist women receive scorn, ridicule, and accusations of sexism.
I stumbled across a blog post about a list a male blogger made. Anthony Michael Rojas made a list called “How To Treat A Woman On A Date: The Basics”. Here is his list:
1.Do not let more than 1 day go by without contacting her
2.Be on time
3.Open her car door
4.Help her put her coat on
5.Hold the door for her to enter/leave an establishment first
6.Pull her chair out for her in the restaurant
7.Order for her (Note – this does not mean tell her what she’s going to have for dinner. Have a conversation about what she wants and then when the waiter comes, order for her.)
8.At the end of your date, don’t drive off until she’s safely inside
The post from which I found this list seemed to question what all the feminist anger was about, which was what intrigued me to begin with.
A male blogger named Anthony Michael Rojas posted a little list entitled, “How To Treat A Woman On A Date: The Basics” on his Tumbler blog this week and it got quite a few angry reblogs from women who felt like his suggestions were sexist. Rojas clearly believe his suggestions to be basic “chivalry,” while his detractors seemed to suggest that there is a difference between chivalry and manners, because chivalry is rooted in sexism. I found many of the responses to not only be silly, but also bordering on unintentionally satirical of “feminist” anger. It was clear to me that the original poster wasn’t being an a**hole, so why did the responses treat him like one? Still, the back-and-forth did bring up the issue of whether these eight seemingly harmless gestures are actually offensive because they are supposedly treat women as the weaker sex. Let’s go through them one by one, shall we?
For the most part, the author of this post didn’t really disagree with much of the list. They saw it as just common sense for dating, but for both men and women. And with the exception of the ordering food rule, the poster and the commenters applauded this list. Even then, they simply added a suggestion that the guy ask his date if she minded first, not a bad idea if you are on a first date and don’t know the girl well.
But of course, all of that went over the heads of angry, bitter, man-hating feminists.
One woman in particular I found to be especially angry. She left catty remarks for each number on the list.
1.Do not let more than 1 day go by without contacting her (Stalker much?)
2.Be on time (That applies to all situations, not just dates.)
3.Open her car door (I can open that myself, thanks.)
4.Help her put her coat on (I can dress myself too, I’m a big girl now!)
5.Hold the door for her to enter/leave an establishment first (Once again, I can do that myself.)
6.Pull her chair out for her in the restaurant (Is this a list of things I’m forbidden to do or something?)
7.Order for her (Note – this does not mean tell her what she’s going to have for dinner. Have a conversation about what she wants and then when the waiter comes, order for her.) (I’m capable of talking to people other than the date.)
8.At the end of your date, don’t drive off until she’s safely inside (Because a mouse might run out of the bushes and I’ll lose my wits and be unable to find the door.)Bolded words are mine. Where’s the part on the list where you’re respectful and not patronizing? Treat her for who she is: a human being, not a helpless doll.
Like most feminists, this girl completely misses the point. Another blogger actually commented on this twice.
also, this list is all very polite and quaint, but mostly unnecessary in today’s society, and if you ordered for me i might actually be a little pissed off.
just sayin’.
maybe i’m just weird then, everyone seems to be pretty cool with this list,
but most of these things would just make me feel uncomfortable.
all of this ’pulling her chair out for her’ and ‘opening the door for her’ and ‘helping her with her coat’ stuff… :/
Another feminist claimed she would be “seething with rage” if a man had the nerve to treat her like a lady:
I would be seething with rage if the guy did any of the above, besides being on time. Treat me like a human being, not a pet. (I do think it’s nice to wait until someone is inside before leaving but that’s true for either gender!)
Another feminist said that this kind of behavior would make her “uncomfortable” until she knew the guy wasn’t a “skeez”. Because, you know, skeezy guys have such great manners.
I would feel EXTREMELY uncomfortable if someone did this stuff on a first date. Maybe some of it a little later when we know each other better and I know he isn’t a skeez. But if anyone did #7 (unless we are actually ordering together) I would be a very unhappy girl.
Yet another feminist said that this made her want to vomit.
why should woman be treated like this all the time? if i got treated like this i’d feel like i had some sort of disability. i find no romance in this type of kindness from boys. and what about them anyway? shouldn’t we treat them back with some consideration. i don’t know a lot about girls, but the list above makes me want to vomit.
There was more, but I don’t really think I need to continue.
Feminists repeatedly smear chivalrous men, and then whine that they’re blamed for the death of chivalry.
I’m not going to really say all of the things I’ve said before because I’m pretty sure it’s self explanatory. I’ll just add this one thing. Women who can’t understand the meaning of chivalry just don’t understand — all their ranting and raving says a lot more about them than it does about chivalrous men. Most rational people understand what chivalry is. Most women appreciate men who are respectful and courteous. And when something as polite as opening a door for you or waiting an extra thirty seconds to make sure you get in safe is seen by you as creepy or sexist or wrong, then it’s you that has the problem, not the chivalrous man.
UPDATE: Welcome, Hot Air readers!
TM says: I have to admit, in nearly 15 years of dating, the guys who treated me according to these “chivalrous” guidelines didn’t last. It’s not so much that I felt like their behavior was grounded in sexism, but it just didn’t feel normal or natural. I was used to “dumbing myself down” for men on dates, not revealing all of who I was or could do, but usually got bored quickly with these men. I married the man who looked at me, when I paused to let him lift a suitcase into the car, and said, “you’re strong, you do it!” (He also got my attention on an earlier date, distinguishing himself from the other guys I’d dated, when I overheard him at a party say, “it’s like Rush Limbaugh says…!” 🙂 So, whether angry feminists or chivalry attempting men are right, the one who lasted for me was the one who made me feel most comfortable….
I couldn’t care less what the feminists think! I taught my son to treat a woman like a lady and I taught my daughter to act like a lady and expect to be treated like one. Both are married now and with great spouses. If I were single and dating and had a date with an obnoxious feminist who objected to being treated like a lade, that would be our only date, end of story. I certainly wouldn’t lose any sleep over her psychosis.
The world needs more real men who act like men. A large portion of our problems today can be traced to the emasculation of men by feminists. Too many men can’t figure out how they should act and react. That don’t know what being a man is.
You treat a woman like a lady until you determine that she is not a lady.
justin says: Reminds me why I am getting married to a girl who is feminine without the ‘ist’ part. A girl who needs me to kill bugs, open doors, and pull out chairs. Someone who expects to be treated like a woman and treats me like a man.
In the end you can date whoever you want, so why put up with nonsense you don’t like. If a woman doesn’t like being treated like a lady, she likely won’t treat you like a man.
I have a feeling feminists do not go out on very many second dates. Which means they are lonely. Which makes them even madder. Which means they are even worse on the next date. And the circle continues.
Buzz says: I’ve gotta admit I’m with the fem-loons on number 7 (ordering). There will inevitably be special requests, questions back and forth about how it should be cooked, etc. So it quickly devolves into an awkward situation where the woman is talking to the waiter anyway, whether directly or indirectly. The other 9 I at least try to do, assuming number 1 just means one day after the date and not every single day thereafter.
Corky says: It’s unfortunate, but true – chivalry is dead nowadays.
But feminists needn’t worry about the list you’ve put together (in my case, anyway).
I’d never date a feminist.
shaken says: Catty remarks can be ignored, as can the feminists. No self-assured, self-respecting fellow would be caught dead dating a feminist.
In my opinion, chivalrous behavior is a demonstration of future treatment – a display of consideration for her that foreshadows the future, when getting through life as a couple requires give and take, and gets tougher.
Feminists got Daddy problems, and are a waste of time and energy.
Chivalry – an application of the Golden Rule, which feminists are unable to contemplate while they stew in their pots of rage.
Gawain's Ghost says: Back when I was in college, I was walking across campus on my way to class and I came to a building. There was a young female walking behind me. I didn’t know her, never met her, but I just thought, you know, I might perform a random act of kindness for a stranger. I opened the door and stepped aside to let her pass.
She said, with venomous indignation, “I just want you to know that if I had gotten here first, I’d have opened the door for you!”
I said, “I just want you to know that if you had opened the door for me, I would have said thank you.”
The problem with feminism is that it begins and ends with a total lack of respect for men and the complete absence of appreciation for anything men do.
It’s not about chivalry, which is a word that gets tossed around a lot but is wholly misunderstood and misdefined. It’s about respect.
Any woman who cannot give it does not deserve it. Period.
clyde says: I was raised with manners, taught by my mother and father. Apparently manners are ignored in today’s family upbringing, for these women aren’t familiar with them, looking for the slightest hint of what they consider being treated with inequality. Something also tells me most of the women groaning and griping don’t HAVE second dates. How they got a first date is the big surprise.
aasudragonfly says: I don’t know why any woman would want to be completely equal or in feminist eyes “the same” as men. Sure I think we should have an equal opportunity for success in our lives. Aside from that I LOVE being a feminine lady and I prefer a man be a masculine man. I should probably just invent a time machine and go back a few decades.
Jake says: I am teaching my children to be polite. Not just my son, but my daughter. She also needs to know how to behave like a lady. It isn’t just that men are or are not gentlemen, it’s that girls are no longer raised as ladies. My daughter is now a United States Marine, and I might add, a lady. You can be both.
mr_e_m_t says: Perhaps it is because I have a “backwater” upraising.
Lot of the ideals I hold to are outdated by 50 years or more.
However, my experiences that have carried me from Houston, to virginia, from the cow pastures to the medical field have taught left me with my own litmus tests that let me know when a girl I am attracted to has a chance in hell with me.
I can’t stand a woman who has a negative personality. Whether because she thinks its a good way to get attention by having people around her giv e her sympathy and work hard to cheer her up, or because she has emotional luggage. I will dump you off on some boy faster than you can say “emo”
Likewise, when a woman does not want to be treated like a lady, it tells you a lot about what you are in for. More than likely, someone with a negative personality.
In short, if you do not wish to be treated like a lady, or gentleman, simply do not act like one. Display your lack of class on your sleeve by being rude to people who were raised with manners enough to show respect to each other by being polite. It’s a great way to impress people by showing what kind of gutter trash you come from.
mj says: Not being late, in whatever context, is more about being respectful, I think. I’ve never gotten in trouble for that.
I briefly dated a single mom, not long after a divorce. I asked about paying the full bill one time. I assumed economic hardship, which seemed to be confirmed by the evidence. She was ticked off. All in all, I’d just say she was a difficult person, and I certainly wasted my time with her.
A friend and I used to go out a lot. Opening car doors was forbidden, unless she was really dressed up, though unlocking her door first was appropriate. Pulling out her chair at the country club was expected. She refused the offer of my coat one cold day. The rules, unfortunately, were learned by breaching them. Time well spent, though.
I think part of what makes this all unpleasant is that people tend to have expectations, which must be kept silent, until someone steps on a landmine.
These things are intended courtesies. They involve placing someone else’s needs ahead of one’s own.
Joanie says: The list is reasonable, and feminists just don’t get it. Being a woman is special, we aren’t just men with boobs. (well, the best of us aren’t, anyway) There is a civility and respect between a man and a woman that makes our life better, a deeper teamwork of which the things on this list are only small indications. We’ve lost that civility in many aspects of society, much to our detriment. My husband didn’t do many of the things on the list…because he was raised by a feminist… but I saw within him the courtesy and kindness that is the foundation of a good man, and twenty-six years later we are still in a great marriage. The other side, of course, of which people hinted, is that a feminist doesn’t know how to treat a man in return. If you choose him well and treat him as if he is the most important thing in your life, he will be.
I ran the list through my wife, she liked all except 6 and 7. Six is a pet peeve and I really don’t like 7. You might ask would you like me to order, but other than that you have all basic stuff.
Lynne says: My father is from the South, he taught me manners. I just turned 46, and to this day, I say yes ma’am, no sir, etc. Also, I’m a lesbian (which implies feminist, of course), but I consider myself a conservative / libertarian. I have done and would do everything on the list for a woman I was dating, and I’m not even “butch”.
I hate the fact that chivalry, and manners in general, are a dying in today’s society. It seems to me that any woman that doesn’t want to be treated this way could just simply, politely, KINDLY, say so, instead of angrily assuming that it means they’re being treated a certain way.
Anyway, that’s MY story, and I’m stickin’ to it . . .
Rick says: A common thread in the feminists’ expressions of outrage is use of the words “if” and “would”.
As in, “if this were to happen to me, I would do ‘x’ in response.”
Translation: “my angry reaction to gentlemanly conduct is purely hypothetical because I am never asked out on dates, so therefore I have no actual experience reacting angrily to gentlemanly conduct. And I know the reason I am never asked out on dates with gentlemen is because my feminist studies classes at college have turned me into a raving psycho nut-job lunatic mouth-foamer that no gentleman in his right mind would ever want to get within 200 feet of.”
justin says: I hope the feminists realize that the fact acting chivalrous makes the “seethe with anger” and walk out on the date, is just more incentive for men to properly treat a date as a lady.
If only it was always so easy to weed out the crazies.
I was raised by a feminist, and it took me 10 Years of dating to figure out that women didn’t want Men to act as my Mother had told me. Women don’t want an equal partner, or a man who can express their feelings openly, or who can sympathize and listen. Thats called a “girlfriend” folks, and a man who acts that way will be treated as one of the girls.
As much as Women would like to choose intellectually what they are attracted to, most don’t and can’t. Through my own emprical observation I have concluded women appear to be attracted to Confidence, Strength, and Security. One comment above suggested the Men who acted with Chivalry “didn’t last long”. But I feel that probably pertains to the attitude in which the “Chivalry” was practiced. If the man is fawning all over you, then he isn’t demonstating confidence, strength or security, even if he is acting in chivalrous manner. For Chivalry to be attractive, a Man must be exhibiting attractive qualities as part of his actions. He opens the door not as a servant, not as a master, but as a Confident Man on his way somewhere, but pausing to be polite. Chivalry isn’t about “control”, but rather a willingness to show someone they are special to them, hopefully while exhibiting te characteristics of someone the Woman still wants to be special to. Most men cut out or tone down the Chivalry thing after Courtship, and most Married women lament it. If it was about “control” does that mean the wives are winning? If so, why would they be sad its gone?
Once I figured this out, I was quite grateful for the feminist reaction to a “man confidently taking charge” – It was a SURE sign, for both of us, that we didn’t belong anywhere near each other. A real relationship requires give and take, and the Feminists I have meet seemed unwilling to give control to their partner and refused under any circumstances to sacrifice ANYTHING to make the relationship work. Apparently doing so would somehow make them “loose themselves.”
I believe a relationship requires both parties to give up some of themselves and sacrifice some of what they want in order to help their spouse achieve what they want in life. I know that having children requires that skill. Its a balance, and its hard to achieve. However, I don’t think the answer is being absolutely selfish in order to justify refusing the demands others might make on you.
JR says: As a woman who once owned an ERA tshirt as a young woman AND who defines herself as a moderate, my two cents: If you are indeed powerful and secure in who you are as a woman, you don’t need to constantly prove it by bashing men. It doesn’t make you more powerful to tell men that they’re useless unless you define a role for them. That makes you no better than that ancient stereotype of men that you’re still stupidly railing against.
As a woman, I’m perfectly capable of many things. Yep, I can lift that suitcase, but how nice that he did that for me. I can open my door, in fact, if I’m at it first I will hold it for you, no matter who you are. But if this man of mine opens my door, I think ‘how wonderful you are to me’, not Jesus Christ, I can open that door myself, you *&&*^&^. And heck yeah, if there is a bug in the house and he hunts it for me, he’s my hero. Why would I WANT to hunt bugs?
Being combative in relationship with people isn’t self-actualizing. It makes you a pain in the ass. There are very few men who are old school these days, so that behavior is indeed, notable to those of us who appreciate it. The world has a lot of rude and unkind people in it, how can one NOT appreciate it unless you’re craven and totally missing the point.
As a long a man does this with kindness, it’s appropriate and preferable. As long as he doesn’t think ‘I’m doing this becuase she’s too lame to do it herself’, it’s the right thing to do.
There are differences between men and women, and it’s entirely fine to think that way. Matter of fact, the goal in relationship would be to appreciate them and let them serve both of you. What is ridiculous is to constantly try to prove that you’re competant, instead of merely being competant.
And if you walk around yelling ‘I don’t need your help’, one day you’ll look around and find out that people don’t like to be yelled at or they’ll take you at your word that you don’t need anything at all. Challenge YOURSELF in your life, not those who are trying to love you.
Ken says: Being from Texas, it’s just the way we’re raised. In my frequent trips to the NE, I’ve had several encounters with what I would guess are feminists. The opening door thing is especially true. In the recording studio one night, I opened the heavy soundproof doors for one small woman several times as she was struggling with them. Her response, “You’re not from around here are you?”. I asked her if it bothered her and she replied no, she rather liked it. Other times in public, I would simply hold a door for women with reactions of incredulous looks on their face then a thank you, getting huffy, telling me not to rush them.
Bob says: I agree with the others that it’s about being polite. What does surprise me is just how angry some of the feminists get over it. Wow. Seriously.. “seething with rage?” Sounds like she’s an unhinged lunatic with some rather alarming anger issues. And the other one? “until she knew the guy wasn’t a “skeez”.”
Remember guys, if she thinks you’re cute, it’s flirting. if not, it’s sexual harassment. *sigh*
Techie says: I was visiting Newport, RI and touring the mansions when I discovered where the “helping with the chair” bit comes from.
At these elegant mansions w/ very formal dining rooms and setups, the chairs were made out of sold oak and cherry. They had to weight at least 100 pounds. There was no way a 19th/20th century lady in evening wear was not going to need help moving those things.
Anna says: I’m a feminist, and I think the whole list is great.
(In fact #8 is mandatory for her protection; weirdos could be waiting in the dark. If you are a woman living alone, it’s a real problem.)
In a nation where women make 70 cents for the male dollar, in a nation where female candidates for the presidency were treated with incredible sexism in the last election, we have better things to worry about than people treating us with kindness and courtesy.
MartyA says: Cassy, good analysis but Michael Rojas’ list is wrong. It seems that all making comments have missed the point. Rojas must know that the basic purpose of the first date is to get a little and, should he fail to score, help determine whether there is a reason for a second date or a move to another first date with a different lady.
Rojas’ list simply applies to one subset of females. He should have other lists covering other subsets, including feminists. If the objective is to get a little, first dating feminists might even make the process a lot easier, i.e., quicker, cheaper.
katy the mean old lady says: Strange, but here in South Florida it is usually the young men who open doors or hold them for women.
The 40 + crowd likes to shove in front.
By the way, if she doesn’t freak out when you open the car door and then un-locks your sie….she’s a keeper!
memomachine says: Hmmmmmm.
1. Raised in New Hampshire in the old style manners and chivalry.
2. Ended up in NJ/NY.
3. Got reamed repeatedly by “feminists” for holding doors, etc.
4. Now I don’t bother. Now I open door, go through door, close door. If you want it open then do it yourself.
It’s a shame really but if women want guys to treat them like crap then I’m obliging.
Kellie says: Too many feminists in this world, not enough LADIES.
Caveman says: Feminists are cute when they’re mad…the scrunchy little button noses, wee fists clenched and waving in impotent rage, the high-pitched squeaks. Amusing little aberrations, they are, and quite irrelevant.
Other than #7 (which seems a popular bone of contention), I do every one of these except, on occasion, #6 (kind of hard to pull out and hold a booth seat (yes, I frequent restaurants with booths)). About the only women who seem to appreciate the door-holding is women older than me (45 and up), and those younger usually take a stutter-step or stop entirely when I hold a door for them.
The really irritating thing is when I hold a door for a woman and they breeze by without so much as a ‘Thank you’, ‘KMA’ or ‘By your leave’. I guess courtesy only flows one way with some, eh? For those, I usually sing out, ‘You’re welcome’ once they’re in the building.
It would look, based on the responses this guy got, that feminists would prefer men treat them like other men, but I really wonder how far these ‘feminists’ would allow the backslapping and ‘friendly cursing’ of something like, ‘Hey, A**hole!’ to go on. My guess, about a 32nd of an inch.
Feminists – they’d b*tch if you hung them with a new rope.
Some of this sounds like BS to me. I’ve been opening doors, giving up seats, and saying Sir and Ma’am all my life; I have yet to be reamed for it, or gotten anything more than a sincere “thank you”, or a grateful smile for my efforts. Even so, no silly feminist is going to stop me from exercising basic politeness to my fellow humans no matter how much she’s seething. Because I don’t do it for her; I do it for my mom, my sister, my wife, and all the other women and men I love and respect. Feminist approval or disapproval is immaterial and means nothing at all to me. I know what’s right.
I can only suggest that you feminists get over yourselves – not every little pleasantry is some plot by the evil Patriarchy to steal your power.
OlympicLeprechaun says: I feel rather privileged NOT to have had the misfortune to personally deal with these kind of vinegar-weaned harpies.
Call me a chauvinist, but I must say Cassy, that while you are funny and very bright, you also fill out a bikini better than anyone since Raquel Welch.
Gridlock says: Many of these are opportunities for physical closeness in an acceptable context. When you help a woman with her coat, scoot her chair or hold a door, you are necessarily in close contact with her, without the gesture being threatening in any way.
When you order for a woman or make sure she is secure when she gets back to her door, you give her the opportunity to ask herself how nice it might be to have somebody do these things for her.
This is a great list. It should be memorized by all young men.
Aaron says: No wonder feminists are so bitter and alone. Who would want to date them?
Pakvi Roti says: Very interesting discussion. I’m for manners and chivalry myself. This topic does remind me of a joke I heard.
Q: What does a feminist use for birth control?
A: Her personality!
newton says: And yet, feminists wonder why men won’t touch them with a ten-foot pole.
I speak as a married woman here.
William says: FWIW,
I was raised in the South and have consistently used “good manners” all over the country and the world. Opening doors for ladies, children, and other men carrying things has rarely generated a negative reaction. Nor has any other act of basic politeness. The key, I think, is that I am confident enough in myself that my actions are simple, unabashed, acts of courtesy to my fellow man and it is difficult for them to be construed any other way. A kind word during the act also establishes a basic person to person rapport that helps ensure a mutual understanding that it is an act of respect between equals. Very seldom have I had a negative reaction. Many pleasantly surprised reactions and their day was brightened and they may very well pass the good vibes on to someone else. In short, the world is better with small acts of kindness (and politeness is kindness).
William sends
CJ says: It all comes down to respect and consideration (as does all etiquette!). If you prefer a man not open a door for you, then she can say so politely: “I appreciate the gesture, but I’m not used to that and it throws me. Could you please let me get it on my own? Thanks.”
Part of the problem seems to be feminists who are almost eager to pounce on anything they deem “sexist” whether it is or not. Once a female friend and I ended up being late for a movie (she hates being late). A few days later we were talking about it at work and I said, well, it was “her job” to look up the correct time and “my job” to drive. A coworker heard this and laid into me for being sexist. After patiently waiting out her rant, I told her it had nothing to do with sex, it was because my friend hated being late so I always let her run the schedule and we leave when she says. That only applies to female friend #1; when I go to the movies with female friend #2, she feels more comfortable driving and isn’t obsessive about being late, so it’s “my job” to get the right time and theatre.
I do agree that 7 is a bit more unusual, and I’d probably only order any shared appetizers or dessert after talking to her.
Anna, The 70 cents on the Dollar is a Myth..
Its called Demographics. Different groups that are not identical in key respects cannot be directly compared, especially when they are different because of thier OWN CHOICES.
Women, more often than Men, chose to stay at home for at least some portion of their working careers. Do you suppose that loosing 5-7 years of experience has no effect on their salaries? Women choose to make their children the focus of their lives more often than men. Do you really thin that has no effect on how hard wome TRY to climb the corporate ladder? Women more often choose to work Part time than Men. Do you really think part time employment will pay as well as full time work? Women choose different professions than men. Do you really expect all sorts of different jobs with different skills and education required will on average pay the same?
I agree wholehearted that Woman should be able to choose, without undue resistence, the less popular of any of these choices. But its absurd to expect women as a group to make the same choices as men as a group. You are comparing Apples and Oranges when you throw out the 70 cent number.
Studies that have attempted to control for these differences have found a much SMALLER difference in incomes. Some of these studies indicate that there is still some discriminatory component, but it is on the order of 7 cents on the dollar, not 30, and those studies usually fail to control for the effect of marriage (married women on average earn less than single women – mostly because the the effect of children outline above) . In my profession (Engineering) Women get paid more (about 20 cents more on the dollar) than men, presumably because the employers are trying to comply with EOE standards (otherwise known as quotas)
RockyinCali says: After 21 years of marriage, I still do all but numbers 7 and 8. Ordering for my wife seems a bit overbearing, but that may just be me, and since we live together I don’t leave often after a date…I think that 1-6 are a good start to explaining why 21 years later my wife has not killed me….yet.
theCork says: I’ve never known a feminist that didn’t hate men. Most ultimately came out of the closet. Guys, if she says she’s a feminist or is in women’s studies, save your time and treasure; DROP HER. Anything a feminist says about how men should treat ladies should be ignored or mocked.
Bobbertsan says: I usually don’t do 4,6 or 7, because they seem too old fashioned and I never see anyone else do them, but I do the rest. Why would anyone object to number 8? A mouse? Yeah, a mouse that happens to be 6’2″ and wants to rape you.
Moron.
All those things that Mr. Rojas listed are things I did for my wife when we were dating. She was very impressed and told me so. These so-called Feminists of today are a different breed. They are mostly career women with six figure jobs and very elitist, and very ugly. They don’t get dates so their complaints about chivalry are sour grapes. They don’t come to the aid of any female who does not belong to their group of high brow snobs. However, I don’t hold any bad feelings toward them. Whenever I meet one, I always bark ‘hello’.
Follow that list and plan to be alone your entire life. Some people need to be dragged into the 21th century. I am not saying I am glad chivalry is almost dead. Just stating the4 facts.
Judester says: I was taught manners growing up and they are in use today as they were in my yesterdays. I would not date a women who wouldn’t allow me to be a gentleman. It’s just not worth the hassle.
Cassy, you have posted an excellent one date test for distinguishing ladies from gender feminists.
Knightbrigade says: My general rule of thumb is if a woman has a problem with me opening a door for her, her NEXT problem would then be, not letting the door hit her in the ass.
If she then didn’t get the message, I would show her my Sam Kinison tee-shirt to set things straight!!….LOL
Besides, (with all due respect to #16 Lynne who being a Libertarian/Conservative I tip my hat…) don’t all feminists just date feminists????!!! lol
Diane Kundrat says: My husband did all of those things when we were dating. I felt very loved, not smothered and not insulted. Is it a coincidence that he is equally as loving in the bedroom? I would bet most of these bitter, resentful women would kill to be in a relationship as happy and fulfilling as ours is. And by the way, I hold the door open for whomever is behind me, man or woman. It’s called manners.
Kortnee says: There’s another good reason for number 8. I had a date drive off and I’d left my keys in the seat. He called me three days later to see if I was free that evening. Not only did he not get a second date, I’m pretty sure I caused a temporary hearing loss in the ear he was holding the phone to. Now, I’m a lady most of the time but I’ve yet to meet a lady who couldn’t ream you good if you stepped out of line.
Also, had the reason you marry a chivalrous man demonstrated to me the other night. At an outdoor concert, a storm blew up very fast. Now, I didn’t mind getting wet and was having fun dancing in the rain (I was really determined to have a good time) but when it started to hail, I went and huddled under the corner of a tent by a bunch of guys my age. They complained that I was getting them wet. Had a gentleman who was in his 40’s grab my arm and pull me into the tent, displacing himself and his buddies, who then got to stand partially in the hail. Not a single complaint did I hear from them but they were all very pleasant people to pass the time with. After the hail stopped, 2 of them walked me out to my husband, who’d gone to bring the car around so I wouldn’t have to walk across several open fields with all the lightning. Had I been dating any of the young men there, I wouldn’t have been after that.
John says: This is why I only have sex with hookers now. Why buy a cow when you can get the milk for free?
Cylar says: This is why I only have sex with hookers now. Why buy a cow when you can get the milk for free?
Eh…don’t you generally have to pay a hooker? Where does the “free” part come in?
I love all the stereotypes posted on here about feminists. I’m a feminists and I don’t consider chivalry to be a feminists issue. I’ll rather tackle things like rape, double standards, and domestic violence honestly so feminists do fight for ACTUAL issues. Don’t get it twisted and not all of us are like the ones you guys are talking about.
And feminists being bitter and alone, okay whatever you say but honestly I’m a feminist, have a boyfriend and before I had my boyfriend I was able to get any male or female that I wanted. As good as I look I don’t have to worry about being alone and the way I treat my men and women, I don’t have to worry about being alone.
Also I personally like to be the one to open the door for men or offer a seat to them, especially the cute ones. It confuses them.
BobV says: This is advice on how a decent man should treat a woman on their first date. I don’t see why feminists are getting upset. Even if they would lower themselves to dating a man (sex with men = rape, every time) it’s not like they’d date a decent one, he’d be spineless, apologetic and would come pre-whipped.
Feminists getting upset by this dating advice seems to me like a blind person complaining about the color of someone elses wallpaper.
To be honest, I don’t think we men should worry about feminism. Most of these women are not male-oriented in behavior, e.g. this is simply something they do to boost their moral superiority. Most women want male-ish men, not whimps, regardless of what they *say*.
Larry says: Tomorrow I will be married for 25 years. I married my bride when we were both 19. The only thing I’ve never done on this list is #7, order for her. I would always let her tell the waiter/waitress what she wanted, having her order first. Beyond that, I pretty much followed the other “rules”. For #8, I would walk her to the door.
I wonder if people who oppose these “rules” have been happily married for any length of time?
Chris M-G says: I also disagree on #7- let her order first, but you don’t have to do the ordering yourself.
Knott Buyinit says: I’ve said it here before, women have traditionally been treated as the weaker and more vulnerable sex because, well, they are. Chivalry developed during the middle ages as a way for honorable men to show respect and deference to women at a time when the treatment of women generally varied between being taken for granted and being brutalized. You know, kind of like now…
I bet I’m stronger Knott Buyinit. And vulnerability is not in my vocabulary. And I’ve seen woman beat men out mentally and physically. Also not all women get beaten. I remember my friend had parents who were abusive so pretty much her mom would beat her husband for the most random things. I don’t condone that at all but just saying….
Cylar says: And I’ve seen woman beat men out mentally and physically.
I’m sure you have, but physically the average woman is no match for the average man…except in the movies.
Surely you’ll allow this point to stand at least. What Knott was getting at (which you apparently missed) is that traditionally, men have been in the role of protector. That’s just how it has always been, both due to their superior size and the observation that many, if not most, societies down through history have been male-dominated to one extent or another. Men protect their women from the nastiness of other men.
Chivalry is a courtesy that men extend to women in order to let them know they’re loved and cared for. To put them in that special place of respect.
Why any woman would have a problem with this, I will never understand. And I’ve met some who did raise the objection.
Cylar says: I love all the stereotypes posted on here about feminists. I’m a feminists and I don’t consider chivalry to be a feminists issue. I’ll rather tackle things like rape, double standards, and domestic violence honestly so feminists do fight for ACTUAL issues. Don’t get it twisted and not all of us are like the ones you guys are talking about.
Too bad you don’t see it as a spelling and grammar issue. Then we might see some real progress, eh?
But to my point. The word “feminist” has come to refer to a bigoted, bitter, anti-male, perpetually outraged, whining harpy. One who rails about “the patriarchy” as if it were still 1950 and the Civil Rights era never took place. It’s a woman – usually a militant lesbian – who is prejudiced against half of the human race. That’s what “feminist” means today. Accept it. If you don’t fit that description, don’t go around calling yourself a feminist. Because if you do, that’s what people will think you are. It’s not a “stereotype,” it’s an accurate perception. Stereotypes wouldn’t exist if they didn’t have a basis in reality.
The paleo-feminists of Susan B Anthony’s day are long gone. (Personally, I see little reason for any woman to carry on the struggle for “rights.” Gender discrimination was outlawed in the US decades ago and the battle is long since won.)
I think it’s time you accepted that the movement has long since morphed into something that decent women want nothing to do with. Maybe you should come up with some other term to describe yourself.
Actually they are stereotypes because I’ve looked up the definition of feminism and it’s pretty simple:
–noun
1. the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.
2. (sometimes initial capital letter) an organized movement for the attainment of such rights for women.
3. feminine character.
I fit those descriptions. I want women to have their rights and fight so they can keep those rights (I mean once something is done, it doesn’t mean it’s over and done. You have to fight to keep it. And I want us to be equal to men. Of course I don’t want us to be exactly like men but I want us to be seen on the same level. Like my boyfriend and I. I don’t want him to be better than me and I don’t want to be better than him. I want us to be equal.
And besides why wouldn’t I consider myself a feminist after all the crap I’ve been through? After going through the things most adults couldn’t take and after two years of suicide attempts to due to rape, eating disorders, and domestic violence (a lot of women issues), it was the group of feminists at my school (half where rape victims) that helped me get through it. On top of that I grew up admiring women like Angela Davis and Betty Friedman and even now admiring outspoken women like M.I.A. and Jessica Valenti, why wouldn’t I be a feminist.
Just the whole anti-male thing that feminists are being pinned on is getting old. Last time I checked my feminist teacher is married to a man, Jessica Valenti has recently been married, a lot of my feminist classmates have boyfriends, feminist entertainer, M.I.A is engaged, and even I have a boyfriend. I know plenty of normal and famous feminists have men in their lives so why would they be anti-male?
“Chivalry is a courtesy that men extend to women in order to let them know they’re loved and cared for. To put them in that special place of respect.”
Not always. I mean yes it is if the guy has his head in the right place. I know older men that have done things for me out of respect and I respect that, even return the favor by doing something nice back such as giving them my seat on a bus or whatever.
But then again I’m a teenage girl and I’m around teenage boys, they’re not always doing nice things for the right reasons. I’ve had guys let me go through a door first so him and his boys can stare at my ass and give it a rating or just admire it (not that I blame them but still it wasn’t out of respect). I’ve had guys pick something up for me, carry something of mine, or offer a seat for me in order to get a number or something extra. So if a guy is doing kind acts for that reason, I’ll say that’s pretty fucked up.
jim says: How to date feminists.
1.When your out on a date with a feminists, call any other female friends you have and say you just wanted to say hello and see how they are doing.
2.Don’t be late, call them from where you were taking them at the agreed time and inquire when they will be there.
3.Allow them to open the door for you, than hold it open for the next two women who enter and bow your head slightly for them. or walk in first and allow the door to close behind you
4.Hand her your coat and let her hold it while you put it on.
5.Pull the chair out, for any woman close by.
6.When a woman at another table stands to leave, you stand. When your feminists date stands to leave, keep eating and don’t acknowledge that she got up.
7.Order for yourself and ask for a separate check.
8.at the end of the date, tell her “that was enjoyable” and to call you sometime and abruptly leave as your leaving call another female friend and ask them what they are doing.
9.Be chivalrous and polite to every other woman you encounter except your feminists date, treat her with indifference.
I dated a “feminists” back in the 80’s for 5 years and I use to bring her flowers from time to time. One day she said to me the she loved it when I brought her flowers because, and I quote “you get a bigger kick out of it than I do” I stopped bringing her flowers or anything else from that point on except for her birthday and Christmas and even then I didn’t put much thought into the gifts because in my mind it really didn’t matter any more.
About 6 months later at a party her parents were giving her cousin was going on about her new boy friend, who was standing there and about how he would buy her little things and leave them in places for her to find.
During the conversation my feminists girlfriend turned to me and asked me in a tone loud enough for all to hear why I didn’t bring her flowers anymore like I use to. I told her “well I use to like bringing you flowers until you told me I was getting a bigger kick out of it than you were, after that I just didn’t enjoy bringing you flowers”.
At that point there she knew exactly what I was talking about and she was embarrassed given the glowing treatment her cousin’s new boyfriend was showering on her and I could tell that she was hurt but she also knew she did it to herself.
Cousin Dave says: Sorry, Leniese, but the likes of Betty Freidan and Jessica Valenti is where we part company. Had you said, say, Wendy McElroy, we’d be on the same plane. But Freidan is the woman who popularized the notion that all hetrosexual sex is rape. And Valenti is one of the leaders of the gender feminism movement, and a man-hater of the first order. The fact that she’s married does not disprove that either — I guarantee you her husband is completely whipped, if not outright abused. In fact, it’s quite hypocritical for Valenti to be married to a man anyway, considering how many times she’s said that she has no use for men in her life whatsoever.
Knott, Cylar and Cousin Dave,
Relax. Don’t argue with Leniese. It’s just Shaniquequa with another name. You’re arguing with a 17 year-old know-it-all. Let it go. We all know that feminists are harpies. Leniese won’t change that basic equation and in fact reinforces it.
Seriously, anyone who says they open doors and offers seats to basically screw with men isn’t operating with a full deck anyway. Think about it…
Mat whatever, I go by Leniese now because that’s my blog’s name. And I don’t see how I reinforce a feminist stereotype. And what’s wrong with opening doors for men and offer seats to men. I think it’s nice to do the favor back and I didn’t say I screw with them. I said it confuses which it does because women never do it.
Also I believe Valenti meant she doesn’t depend on men for life support like many women do.
“Mat whatever, I go by Leniese now because that’s my blog’s name.”
Like, oh my god, did you, like, really?
“And what’s wrong with opening doors for men and offer seats to men. I think it’s nice to do the favor back and I didn’t say I screw with them. I said it confuses which it does because women never do it.”
Ok, let’s go back to what you said originally in post 55: “Also I personally like to be the one to open the door for men or offer a seat to them, especially the cute ones. It confuses them.” BTW, this is after all the stuff about how “awesome” you are…
You personally “like” (your words, not mine) to do that, which means a certain satisfaction with confusing men. Hence the screwing with them label.
I’ll waste more time with you. You’re silly and you have a lot of growing up to do. Come back in 15-20 years and maybe you’ll be worth listening to.
Men have always been known for their chivalry. If they are treated well by women, they get treated better in return. If women want to be taken good care of by their men, they need to respect and treat their men with dignity.
Spectre says: 1.Do not let more than 1 day go by without contacting her
I’m ambivalent about that one.
2.Be on time
Isn’t that just a general rule of civilized society?
Meeting people when you say you’re going to meet them?
3.Open her car door
First off, this kinda assumes that one drives a car. Not everyone does.
In my case, this is impossible, as I cannot open the passenger side door until I have unlocked and opened the driver’s side door. [I have no idea why the locking mechanisms work that way.]
4.Help her put her coat on
If there is a coat-check, I may go get her coat [and mine!] and bring it to her, and I may hold her purse-handbag/etc if she needs her hands free, but I’m pretty sure she can put her coat on without my interference. Besides, if your coat requires the assistance of one or more persons to put on, then I think perhaps you should purchase less complicated clothing.
5.Hold the door for her to enter/leave an establishment first
Well, I just hold doors for everyone, regardless, so….
6.Pull her chair out for her in the restaurant
Again, I’m ambivalent about that one.
I can’t really afford to go on dates to any place that has fancy, heavy oak chairs; I’m really more in the “aluminum/molded plastic” economic bracket.
7.Order for her
No, however, I will wait for her to order first. But then, when I’m having dinner with a group of people, I wait for them to order before ordering myself. That’s… Just how I do things.
8.At the end of your date, don’t drive off until she’s safely inside
(Again, there’s that car-driving assumption.) My neighborhood isn’t so nice, sometimes – but even if it was a nice neighborhood, I still make a policy of ensuring the safety of whomever I’m dropping off. [I like to think that they’d do the same for me, frankly.]
BarryMayor says: Feminists are anti-male, including the heterosexual ones. Just as plenty of misogynists find girlfriends and/or wives that they can dominate, hetero feminists find beta males they can dominate who won’t or can’t find the will to object to their anti-male views and behavior.
The good news is, if you happen to not be a beta male and come into contact wiht a feminist, you should treat her with equality, no different that you would treat a male. If she’s struggling to carry something or standing on the roadside with a flat, only help her if you would help another man. That’s true feminism. That’s equality.
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