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Apparently, there’s a new parenting movement growing. It’s called “consensual living“, which to me kind of sounds like some kind of free love sex group that hippies came up with in the 70s. Anyway, it’s actually a parenting style where… well, basically, you don’t parent your children at all.
Seriously.
One morning last September, Melanie Leavey’s six-year-old daughter, Savannah, insisted on wearing a Halloween cat costume instead of normal clothes. She wore it all day long, and the next too. Eventually, she agreed to take off the costume so it could be washed, but the minute it was laundered, she pulled it on again. Weeks passed, then months. It wasn’t until February, almost six months later, that Savannah finally decided to put the cat costume to rest.
But at no point did her mother try to make Savannah stop wearing it, says Ms. Leavey, who lives in Burlington, Ont., with her husband Brandt, Savannah and Sebastian, age 4.
Getting Savannah dressed in the morning had long been a battle. “I tried all the mainstream parenting guru advice, but nothing worked,” she says.
So, Ms. Leavey began to practise consensual living, a set of principles designed to help family members understand each other’s feelings and meet one another’s needs.
… In the consensual living model, father doesn’t know best. Neither does mom. Instead, parents and children are equal partners in family life, according to the principles laid out at consensual-living.com.
Founded in 2006 by a group of families in North Carolina, consensual living is gaining ground in alternative parenting communities and online, including a Yahoo group with about 900 members.
… “When parents put themselves in the role as authorities, they may believe they are doing it ‘for the child’s good,’ ” writes one of the movement’s co-founders, Anna Brown, “but they could be missing an opportunity to have more connected relationships with their children.”
Lindsay Hollett of Nanaimo, B.C., says that she began to snap less with her husband, Craig, and her 18-month-old daughter, Kahlan, after she adopted the consensual-living mindset about a year ago.
Her days became more relaxed when she focused more on Kahlan’s needs, she says. If she had a doctor’s appointment but her daughter was feeling grumpy, for example, Ms. Hollett would not force Kahlan to wait with her to see the doctor. Instead, Ms. Hollett might cancel the appointment or arrange alternative child care, she says.
… For now, Ms. Hollett says, the onus is on her to be a role model for consensual living principles such as empathy and mutual respect for her daughter. As Kahlan grows older, though, “it won’t just be me empathizing with her.”
… Echota Keller, a mother in Langley, B.C., says that she creates boundaries with her three-year-old son, Kiernen, while “giving him the space to be his own person.”
In daily life, she makes a practice of letting him know what her intentions are, she says, “and asking him if that’s going to work for him.”
Recently, the principles of consensual living have helped her cope with her son’s hitting stage, she says.
When Kiernen strikes another child, Ms. Keller asks him what he’s feeling and whether he’d like to express his anger or frustration in another way, such as using words or hitting a pillow.
She tells him it’s not okay to hit others, but she and her husband, Josh, do not force Kiernen to say he’s sorry. “If he’s going to apologize, we want it to be authentic,” Ms. Keller says.
… The biggest shift in family life has been to make sure everyone is heard, Ms. Leavey says. The family now works as a cohesive unit, she adds. “There are many less tantrums – and not just on the children’s part.”
You’ve got to be freaking kidding me. I kind of like Rachel’s reaction the best:
Tell me that doesn’t make you want to “express your frustration” on one of those parents’ faces with a hard object. Maybe when they tell you that their intention is for you to stop, you can let them know that it’s just not going to work for you. Because you need some space to be your own person.
LOL, Rachel. LOL.
In all seriousness though, this is not a parenting technique or movement. You know what this is? Lazy parents. That’s exactly what it is. These are a bunch of lazy parents who just can’t work up the effort to actually parent their spoiled rotten children.
Let’s dig a little deeper here. Check out the “Core Principles” and “Techniques” of “Consensual Living”:
CORE PRINCIPLES
Everyone’s wants and needs are equally valid, regardless of age. Children can be trusted to know their own minds and bodies. Punishments and rewards are tools of manipulation, unneeded when family members work as a team. There is a creative solution that works for everyone. Each family member has a positive intent and desires harmony. When all are secure that their needs will be met, they will branch out and help others meet their needs. TECHINQUES
In a conflict, identify the underlying needs – usually there are several ways they can be met. Pay attention to the underlying needs in someone who is hungry, angry, lonely or tired (HALT). Sometimes addressing biological needs helps get everyone back on track. Otherwise, explore underlying needs through validation (“You’re feeling sad that we’re about to leave the toy store, aren’t you?”) and clarification (“What I hear you saying is that you want more time to look at the marbles, right?”). Once others feel heard, revert to “I” statements to express your own needs (“I want to head home so there’s enough time to make dinner before everyone gets really hungry”). Think outside the box with other family members, including children, to come up with a solution for each situation.
These are all a pile of utter crap.
Children do not know their minds and bodies, especially at the toddler age. I work with kids from about 4 months all the way up to 13, every day. And let me tell you something: most toddlers are still getting a grip on the whole left hand-right hand thing. They can identify body parts, but they don’t understand their body. A lot of toddlers are potty-trained, but they can’t completely control themselves. They’re a lot more capable of physical activity but often don’t know their own physical limitations. And the whole “know their minds” thing? That’s the biggest load of garbage of all. Most children can express themselves better as they get older, yes, but a lot of the time, they have trouble explaining what they are feeling or understanding complex thoughts. Yet we’re supposed to let them have complete control of themselves?
Punishments and rewards are not manipulations. If a kid does something bad, they get punished. Whether it’s a mild punishment like time-out, or a harsher one like a spanking, you have to teach a child that if they do something wrong, there are consequences. If a child grows up with no understanding of the fact that actions bear consequences, what is to stop them from doing horrible things when they grow up?
I think the harmony desiring is my favorite one, though. Kids don’t desire harmony… they want what they want when they want it. Sure, they want to please Mommy and Daddy, or their teachers, and they want approval, but they certainly don’t understand the concept of stressing Mommy out. To use one of their examples, if Mommy asks Junior to pass up looking at the marbles at the toy store because she would really like to get home and cook dinner, Junior is unlikely to care. Junior just wants to look at marbles. Junior does not understand the concept of a schedule or of responsibilities; he just knows that he wants to look at the marbles at the toy store. And thanks to this parenting technique, Junior has learned that Mommy is a push-over who will do anything he wants if he just asks her more than once, and that what he wants is more important than anything she may need.
Children need authority, plain and simple. Mom and Dad are boss, and children are to obey them. Period. You don’t need to worry about how following the rules makes little Johnny and Susie feel. If you do not follow directions, you will be punished. Listen to Mom and Dad and life will be good. Don’t listen to Mom and Dad and you’ll find your various privileges taken away. Mom and Dad still love their children and tell them so every day, along with lots of hugs and kisses to let them know. Now, I will agree that as children get older, you need to give them a little space. You need to let them start making a few of their own decisions, and hold them accountable for the decisions they make. Start small. Once they get into high school, they can start having discussions about the rules of the house. They don’t get to decide, but they can voice their opinions, and if they can persuade you with a logical, adult argument, then maybe you will change your mind. Mom and Dad are still the bosses though, and there is still only so much decision-making that Johnny and Susie get to enjoy. That’s the Cassy Fiano parenting method.
A parent’s job is not to be their child’s best friend, and children do not magically evolve into responsible, well-behaved, intelligent people. They are raised to be so. And if parents never set boundaries for their kids, if they never teach their kids the difference between right and wrong, then those children will have a tough time making it as adults. Respect and empathy are not traits people are born with; you have to instill them. And this consensual parenting crap will never teach a child to be respectful or empathetic.
All in all, I still think that these parents employing this method of child-rearing are just lazy. I’m sure there are a lot fewer temper tantrums if you let Junior eat whatever he wants, do whatever he wants, wear whatever he wants, and go to sleep whenever he wants. But the easiest path is not the best one. It’s certainly not the best for the child. Yet that’s what these parents are choosing: the path of least resistance, at the expense of their children’s futures.
Sad.
I commented that this isn’t “consensual parenting”,but rather a steaming pile of bullshit. You can predict pretty well, I think, just how these kids will turn out. All I can say is that they’d be swell best friends.
No offense, Cassy, but maybe you should stick to non-parenting issues. When I was single and even up to the point that I gave birth, I had all of these well formed opinions on parenting. The one thing that every parent learns when they become a parent is that they have to throw all of those preconceptions out the window. While strict and complete adherence to any parenting orthodoxy is misguided, the underlying principles of the one you are attacking is that listening to and respecting the opinions of one’s child[ren] is the one of the best ways to teach children to listen to and respect others. These parents taking it to the extreme is misguided at worst. Who cares if a child wears the same outfit everyday for a week, a month, or even a year?
When or if you decide to become a mom, you will understand what I’m talking about.
Melinda P says: Cassy, I agree totally with you. The whole letting your kid wear what they want thing doesn’t have to happen. My 3 year old loves some of his shirts, but when they’re dirty, he understands that they’re dirty. I tell him that they need to be washed and that will happen when his laundry basket is full. “Okay, maybe next time.” is his answer. I’m also able to take my children almost anywhere. They are 6 and 3, yet they know how to act in certain situations. My husband and I tell them what we expect from them, and if they don’t act appropriately, then there are consequences. It bothers me when people tell me that their children can’t do the same kinds of things mine can, like stay quiet in the same room while in church or choir practice. My husband and I have had many conversations about this lately. Our conclusion; if you expect nothing from your children, then that’s what you get. A child is capable of understanding that certain behaviors bring consequences. These parents who follow this “consensual parenting” are lazy. You know that they won’t take the blame for how their “little angels” turn out either. It will be society’s fault!
“Who cares if a child wears the same outfit everyday for a week, a month, or even a year?”
A good parent? While I agree that most people don’t understand that children need to be listened to, they also need to learn boundaries. If children learn they can demand something outrageous and the parents will simply allow it indefinitely what will they learn and how will they act in the future? How does that teach them reality?
Like Fiaon I don’t have children though I’ve worked with children for years and have seen first hand what happens when parents are too permissive. Those were the kids who hit others, disrupted programs and ultimately got sent away.
Parenting is brutal. Weak parents tend to be terrible at it and raise spoiled kids that are good only at demanding things of others… sort of like Democrats.
“While strict and complete adherence to any parenting orthodoxy is misguided, the underlying principles of the one you are attacking is that listening to and respecting the opinions of one’s child[ren] is the one of the best ways to teach children to listen to and respect others.”
I don’t see anything logically wrong with Cassy’s idea of parenting. It’s just good, common sense. As far as children’s opinions go, it depends on what their opinion is (and truthfully, most of the time, their opinion is pretty self-centered crap). If you think that a kid yanking on the dog’s ears is respecting the child’s opinion, then you’re probably going to be raising a friggin psycho. Personally, I think kids are effing morons until they’re 22. They need guidance and I’ve seen way too many parents who are super lazy about disciplining their kids.
“These parents taking it to the extreme is misguided at worst.”
Ya think?
“Who cares if a child wears the same outfit everyday for a week, a month, or even a year? ”
Um, you and your child will care if he/she is picked on for being the smelly pigpen kid in school. Or are you washing those same set of clothes everyday? Not too much of a waste of time and resources. You really think kids don’t pick up on that sort of thing? My nephew tries to pull that nonsense all the time when he goes out with clothes he’s worn for several days. And yes, they stink. Kind of a dumb comment there…
If a parent wants to wash the outfit every day, who cares? Really. What if that were the kid’s only clothes? once upon a time people didn’t have tens of different outfits, especially not children. They had their every day clothes and their church clothes and that was it.
On the grand scale of bad parenting, consensual parenting falls very low.
And I’m willing to bet NONE of you who responded to my comment have kids. Parenting is a thousand times different than just handing a kid back to parents at the end of a day. Just food for thought…
Nicky says: I’m a mom to three toddlers and I totally 100% agree with you Cassy.
Toddlers and kids need guidance and direction, because they don’t know what they want and they depend on us (their parents) to help, teach and guide them. The consensual living parenting style might work for a while, but wait til that kid becomes a teen. WHEWEEEEE!
BTW, before I had kids – my outlook on parenting was exactly like yours Cassy and it hasn’t changed 3 kids later.
The clothing thing: my 3 year old gets attached to certian things, but she knows that I will take it and throw it in the washer when it gets gross and give it back. Because, I’m the Mom and that is my job: to be mean.
“If a parent wants to wash the outfit every day, who cares? Really. What if that were the kid’s only clothes? once upon a time people didn’t have tens of different outfits, especially not children. They had their every day clothes and their church clothes and that was it.”
Ok, last time I checked, we live in the 21st century, not the 19th. People didn’t have any choice then. They do now. I’m not asking that they have the Imelda Marcos clothes collection (I certainly do not), but variety is generally a good thing. Really not a good example.
“On the grand scale of bad parenting, consensual parenting falls very low.”
Oh, I have no doubt that there are some awful parenting styles (like beating a kids senseless or even killing them…that seems to be a neat theme in the news these days…) out there. But the point is that this is pretty bad because it doesn’t prepare kids for the real world. If you wish to ignore this fundamental fact, well, it’s a free country.
“And I’m willing to bet NONE of you who responded to my comment have kids. Parenting is a thousand times different than just handing a kid back to parents at the end of a day. Just food for thought…”
So what’s your point? No, I don’t have kids, nor do I want any. However, I’ve seen plenty of really bad parents who do very similar stuff to what I read in Cassy’s article. You’re telling me that I if I were about to have kids, my experience with those types of parents automatically disqualifies me? That’s even dumber than the initial comment you made. If I were to have kids (and believe me, that’s a big if) I would at least know how NOT to parent them, given what I’ve seen.
At this point, it just seems like you’re arguing for the sake of arguing. I expect that from liberal trolls, not from a supposed neocon. Try to formulate your arguments with better clarity in the future, ok?
Professor P. says: I am a mom of 4 grown children: a Ph.D., an M.Div., an engineer who went to college at 16 on full scholarship, and an 18-year-old about to graduate from high school with academic scholarships to the college of her choice. I have also been a teacher for 30+ years at all levels from elementary school through college. So I think I have credibility to comment on parenting styles.
Consensual Living? Hogwash! It’s a recipe for producing precious little snowflakes who think the world cares about their feelings. It doesn’t. What employers, teachers, coaches, etc. care about is result-oriented behavior, and caving in to a toddler to avoid a tantrum is submitting to manipulation. Children need a grown-up in the home, someone who loves them but knows what’s best and who is not afraid to insist upon house rules. In my experience, children who are raised with genuine grown-ups who enforce age-appropriate rules for their toddlers rarely become hellions later. Children who manipulate their parents with threats of tantrums, holding breath, etc. end up being the ones who get into trouble–with parents who insist their child would never behave in that way. Those are the kids who think the world owes them whatever they want–new toys, grades, jobs, cars, cell phones, and so on. They will be shocked–SHOCKED, I tell you–when they find out that eventually, they will have to either produce on time and to a standard, or face the consequences.
Consequences for poor behavior are not manipulation; they are training, which is essential if you intend to produce adults who have the skills and personality for happy, productive lives.
WayneB says: And I’m willing to bet NONE of you who responded to my comment have kids.
Since I don’t know if he’ll be back to respond, I will point out that Physics Geek does indeed have children. At least he has said in the past and in his comment over at Rachel’s that he does. And apparently very well-behaved ones, at that.
Sean says: This is nothing new. My aunt from Brekely Ca used this crap with my cousion 20 years ago. It worked great he is now 27 and doing 10 to 15 in the pen while my parents used the tradional appraoch and I went on to become an engineer. Just more liberal garbage destroying families. I guess when Johnny gets caught playing doctor at 6 with Sally they are told to carry on.
Kortnee says: While I agree with most of this, I really have to take issue with the clothing thing. My son, age 5, has about 10 different costumes that he wears around the house. He’s even worn a couple of them to the grocery store when I was short something for dinner and had to make a quick run. Not only is he extremely well behaved in every place I’ve ever had to take him (including sitting quietly through one of my English classes when the baby sitter got sick), he has learned the rules of dressing appropriately for the situation. He has school clothes and costumes and jeans for the weekend. Costumes can only be worn in the house or at Nana’s, though Nana has better costumes. He gets to pick which of his school shirts he wants to wear with which pair of his school pants.
No, I don’t ask my son if the rules will work for him but if he’s ill (the only early symptom of which is extreme crankiness) I will reschedule my day to take care of him. That’s not being a pushover, that’s being a good parent. When he does something wrong, I punish him then explain it. Sometimes he doesn’t understand entirely but he rarely repeats an offense.
I treat him as a future adult, not a child, and that seems to work. The real problem I see with the “Consensual” nonsense is that they are treating the children like adults. Adults know where to set boundaries, children need to have the boundaries set for them. I set the boundaries for my son then I tell him what they are and why they’re there. This has had some interesting results, like when he recognized something that was similar to what I’d told him not to do and he asked me about it. He recognized, and verified, a new boundary because I’d taken the time to tell him why something was wrong. Kids aren’t stupid, but neither are they adults, which should be obvious but, sadly, seems to not be.
Don L says: I suspect that this is more than just lazy parents. Thisis about morally confused parents who have been neutered by the Godless left throughthe universities and media assualt upon knowing truth and what is right and what is wrong (relative truth and morality) Since we have had generation after generation who have not receive clear solid upbringing form our parents an get their values from the secular culture, it is no wonder that evil gets a sppecial break with todays’s confusedd parents.
Of, course, the liberal process (diabolically inspired to my mind)of political correctness and neutral value system, the purpose of which is to remove goodness from society; tolerance,sensitivity, and rights to do wrong without criticism or comment are it’s main weapons. Only open correction and admonishment (aand shhh…prayer)can prevent it.
I once was naive to think that a real crisis would return people too those core beliefs necessary for society to thrive, but now as I watch the present crisis converted to opportunity for destruction of that family based society, I change my mind on that.
Don L says: Sorry for that “first draft” non-editing -too much caffiene and rushing.
I have three kids, 5, 10, and 12. I had my 12YO when I was 20, stupid, and had no clue what I was doing. I learned this same BS from the daycare he went to, so I did it with the first two. BIG mistake. Cassy is pretty spot on. The kids turned into entitled little brats. It took us years, and a lot of work, to set them right.
I see no problem with the costume thing, though. I wouldn’t make a big issue out of that. It was a bad example to start with. It makes the parenting style sound benign when really it is pretty harmful.
There is nothing wrong with listening to your kid’s feelings and taking them into account, but the parent needs to be the parent.
The Cassy Fiano parenting method is right on the money.
Properly executed consensual living is not for lazy parents. Much of it involves anticipating when one’s child is getting frustrated, angry, cranky, etc in order to PREVENT a situation from arising in the first place. I have many friends who practice this type of parenting and it seems to work extremely well when done right. Kids learn good conflict resolution skills at a young age. Parents are extremely involved with their children in order to anticipate these moods and redirect the child.
There will always be lazy parents, unfortunately, and they make excuses for their bad behavior. It seems consensual parenting has become bastardized by those lazy parents in order to “justify” their lack of parenting.
My point was merely that, on the grand scale of parenting ills, properly executed consensual parenting falls very very low. It certainly is undeserving of such an over-the-top reaction from a young, single, and childless person whose expertise is in political commentary.
Furthermore, from a legal and political perspective, a parent’s right to raise their child as they see fit is conferred by the 14th amendment. I find it enormously ironic that a conservative blog dedicated, in parts, to the preservation of the constitutional rights such as the right to bear arms reacts to consensual parenting as if it were dangerous.
Absent abuse, who cares if people raise spoiled brats? I mean really, spoiling children is not a new concept, our perception of the state of being spoiled changes over time, but it’s certainly not new.
My original comment was not meant as an offense to Ms Fiano. It was meant t
It was meant merely to raise the notion that the principles of consensual parenting are not necessarily bad and that when one becomes a parent, certain pre-conceived notions of what is right for one’s child go out the window.
Don_cos says: What I hear you saying is that you want more time to look at the marbles, right?”
What they need is more time to find their marbles!
All in all, I still think that these parents employing this method of child-rearing are just lazy
Don’t forget stupid.
When or if you decide to become a mom, you will understand what I’m talking about ~ TMQ
Well I have four children and I can tell you that each are different and you are correct that strict adherence to any individual style will be problematic at best. But this consensual parenting is a load of garbage.
What if that were the kid’s only clothes? ~ TMQ
It is a holloween costume. Nice strawman.
shaun fischer says: I remember around 10yrs ago my neice who at the time was into all this alternative parenting crap.At a family gathering her 4yr old son was throwing a typical 4yr old tantrum,cause he wanted some candy before dinner.She was sitting on the floor with a smug look on her face explaining nutrional value of dinner verses candy!! I in my typical truckdriver common sense said just tell him no,after dinner and if you don’t behave you’ll get no dinner or CANDY! She in a condensening voice told me this new parenting method was to have a dicussion with your child using “reason” as a key paramater!I calmly explained to her that it is IMPOSSIBLE to reason with a human being that leaks out of every orafice in it’s body,and EATS IT”S OWN BUGGERS !!!She has since seen this logic,but she’s smart.
Phil Taylor says: TMQ please… please… stop! So far what you’ve said is compleat bollocks! Consensual parenting is such crap… and I say this as a really cranky parent who has heard a ton of parenting nonsense over the years. This consensual parenting may very well be the biggest load of crap I’ve heard in a very long time… and a supposedly rational adult came up with it????? The young, single and childless blogger has a much stronger grasp of reality than you do… I am very aware that when the kids come along parenting notions change. Mine did… but never along the sheer stupidity of consensual parenting… I’ve rewritten this thing twice and I’m still fuming so I’ll stop now cause I’m still struggling with trying to be polite and nonpersonal with my comments… and I’m failing…
Phil Taylor says: And if the whole consensual parenting thing turns out to be a truely bad idea and you end up with social monsters, will you be an adult… step up to the plate and accept full responsibilty for poor parenting? Miss Fiano was excersizing her free speech rights on her blog in sharing her thoughts on a poor parenting idea… As it is her blog… and I thank her for sharing her views and as a parent I agree with her, and I thank her for giving me the space to vent, and now I’ll go vent… else where…
Jack says: “I have many friends who practice this type of parenting”
Couldn’t help but notice that, TMQ. You’ve got friends who do this. Friends.
Got any kids, TMQ?
I got 3, one 21 and two 18. And I can tell you that ‘consensual’ parenting, as described, is a load.
And as far as wearing the same outfit for 6 months……no. Why? Because I said so.
RogerCfromSD says: TMQ, I’m trying to think of a delicate way to put this, but I’ve had it with the fascist constraints of PC mentality: You’re a dumb ass.
I was a child once. I’ve since worked with children. I now have three children of my own.
Consensual Parenting is yet another in a line of Dr. Spockish nonsense that sounds so good in theory, but which ends up harming children, and by extension, society.
There’s a reason traditional child-rearing methods are employed: They work. And, most often than not, the end results are responsible adults.
We call children “children” for a reason. Because they, too, are dumb asses. They like to think they know what’s best for them, but as any rational adult knows, these twerps don’t know their kneecaps from their elbows. They NEED supervision, discipline, and boundaries. That really should go without saying.
Proponents of this asinine parental movement really are no different from the feel-good parents of the hippie age. Look how things turned out for them.
Jewells says: First time poster. This new parenting technique sounds completely screwed up to me. These kids will be messed up when they grow up.
And BTW- I’m pretty sure this is Cassy’s blog and she can pretty much blog about what she wants, am I correct?
Son of Bob says: This is nothing new. This is typical liberal BS. Since there are no parent/child roles, it excuses the lazy parent from having to deal with the “stress” of parenting their own children. Instead of teaching them how to live in the world, they just let them do what they want – that’s not a “parenting style,” it’s just not being mature enough to be a parent. However, if you’re a liberal, you just think up a catchy name for anything bizarre that you want to do because of your own selfish, lazy, or perverted wants, and then try to pass it off as a new “lifestyle.”
We’ve already experienced the results of the spoiled brats that aren’t raised by real parents. It’s called the Huffington Post. Cassy is absolutely spot-on with her headline.
involuntarily childless says: I’m tired of the ‘you don’t know because you don’t have kids’ way of trying to end any argument – it’s the same rhetoric as telling a four-year-old ‘because I said so’. I find the only friends I have who are parents and say that to anyone are the ones who have consistenty badly behaved kids.
I babysat and nannied tons of kids, have 11 nieces and nephews who are now adults, all raised with a variety of parenting styles, some of whom could be little hellions. I never had trouble getting them to behave on my watch. Yes, listen to their needs – too many parents out shopping and ignore that their kid is tired or hungry. That is important. Both my parents were terrible for ignoring my needs when I was a kid and my dad hit me repeatedly when I was eight because he was tired of my whining when I hadn’t eaten in over six hours and was tired as hell. Part of a parent’s responsibility is to ensure the child’s NEEDS are met. The child’s WANTS? Less so, and it’s vitally important to teach the distinction.
But there’s a world of difference between that stupidity and and the way that parent talks about the three-year old’s ‘hitting phase’. Not making a three-year-old appologize, for instance, for sake of the kid he hit, and only discussing his own feelings?
As for the ‘equal partners’ thing – this is welfare state mentality. Equality based on how much you contribute to the family unit makes much more sense.
Shawn says: @TMQ
The problem with this type of parenting (and I assure you I am a Parent) is that you raise your children with unrealistic expectations. They will expect the rest of the world to treat them with the kid gloves you restrict yourself to.
I am not saying you should treat your shildren harshly, but one of the best lessons I learned from my parents is that the world does not owe me anything. Whether that be a livelihood or even common courtesy and understanding. It would be great to live in a world where the best case scenario happens all the time, but that world doesn’t exist. If you don’t teach your children about responsibility, discipline, and how the world will not look out for your best interests, then you are really doing them a disservice and unleashing a person on society who will most likely become a liability instead of an asset.
Everything in moderation. Too much discipline is frequently looked at as counterproductive, but not enough can be just as damaging. In my opinion you should love your children enough not to set them up to be knocked down by a world that doesn’t care about them as much as you do. Anything else does smell a bit lazy, but that is my opinion.
aharris says: I’ve worked closely with kids of various ages for 5-7 years now and I’ll be having one of my own (hopefully in the next year or so). Some things I’ve learned are that it’s absolutely OK to give kids some power to make their own choices so long as you define those choices, are OK with any of the options given, and present the choices in such a way that the kid is happy to choose from those options; for me the nonchalant, brisk, moving-right-along approach works best, they choose quickyl because they know I’m already moving on and they won’t have time to think on possible options I didn’t list mostly. Similarly, you pick your battles. The clothing thing really doesn’t matter most times unless your kid wants to wear nothing but his underpants or something else truly inappropriate. Or you give the kid things they can help with: “I’m getting us ready to do this, so would you do this?” When presented with the attitude that you have no doubt that they’ll do it, most kids do it particularly if you’re involved doing something else. If you let them help you by telling them what they can help with and how but be precise it also works out pretty well because they like to feel to important to the things you’re doing. And lastly, always remember to tell them what they did right and praise it. That does so much more than just griping about what that they do wrong.
All the things I talked about are what I would call consensual because only the most obstinant and oppositional kids fail to respond to those things, and I’ve had some real turkeys that would fight you every step of the way that would still fall right in with some of those things without even thinking about it and be pretty happy to do it, too.
Ironwolf32 says: I agree with Cassy. It is also unfair for others to dismiss your opinion simply because you do not children.
Consensual parenting would give you this:
Parent – “Kids, I am making dinner. Do you want Salisbury Steak, mashed potatoes, and green beans? Or Cake?”
Children – “Cake!!!”
Parent – “OK. I will make cake again. Help yourself to the leftover brownies from lunch…”
Yep, that is a good idea. Let the patients run the asylum….
You can deal with adults on this level because they know the difference between right and wrong. Kids need to be shown the difference between right and wrong and they need to know what their boundaries are. You do not beg them to behave and you do not reason with a 2 year old.
I have only seen 1 instance where consensual parenting actually worked. My aunt and uncle used this method with their 2 kids after they turned 12. They laid down 12 years of groundwork for respect, discipline and manners before treating them on a more equal footing. The result: One was a graduate of Princeton and Cal-Tech, the other graduated from Georgetown University. Without the strong foundation of parenting prior to 12, this method would not have worked.
I have two children: ages 3 and 2. While my friends who adhere to consensual parenting have far from perfect children, they are no worse then anybody else’s children at that age. It’s not like these kids aren’t parented, which is exactly how all of you are framing it. It would help if some of you actually read about it and learned about it before just getting angry.
I never said anything about barring Cassy from speaking freely on her own blog. Afterall, she’s affording me the same opportunity and she does not have to. She undermines the validity of her other writings, though, IMO when she editorializes in a manner that betrays her 1] inexperience with and knowledge of the issue and 2] is in direct conflict with many of her espoused political stances.
@ RogerC: I was unaware that the fourteenth amendment was a fascist constraint of the PC mentality. Good to know. I will file that one back for later. Also, most of that “Dr Spockish nonsense” you speak of deals with fathers being involved with their children’s lives. Prior to Dr. Spock, most fathers had nothing to do with the raising of their children.
shaun says: Why does this article remind me of The Simpsons episode where Flanders sees a specialist to see why he’s so passive and he remembers his parents inability to control a out of control little Ned.
Ned Flander’s parents to pediatrician:
“Man, we’ve tried nothing and nothing seems to work”
mathetes says: “Everyone’s wants and needs are equally valid, regardless of age.”
I think this is a huge problem. It teaches children not to make distinctions. Is the want to kick the dog “equally valid” to the want to walk the dog? The whole point of parenting is that some affections are more worthy than others. The child does not come out of the womb loving only the things that are worthy of his/her love. By not using my authority as parent to discipline my child I am forcing him to live in the small world he inhabits as a child. An example- His/her desire not do homework confines him to his ignorance. Is this as worthy as a desire to expand and inform his mind? If he is not to live forever as a child I will need to expend the energy to teach him to love those things that are worthy of his affections.
Amelia in Tx says: How is this in direct conflict with Cassy’s political stances? She’s giving her opinion that this parenting style is foolish. Nowhere does she say people should be banned by law from using this style.
Saying her comments on parenting have no validity because she isn’t a parent sounds an awful lot like the chickenhawk argument to me (and I am a parent).
Shawn says: @ TMQ
“Prior to Dr. Spock, most fathers had nothing to do with the raising of their children”
-That’s painting with a VERY large brush
To satisfy my curiosity, if another child ridiculed your child for whatever decision she made (for arguments sake why don’t we stick with the cat costume) would you extend the same kid glove treatment to that child? After all, that is the decision they made (to ridicule your child). That ridicule could be construed as the ramifications of their decision to wear a cat costume every day.
Would this become a “teachable moment” in which you could show your child the real world consequences of the decision they made to wear a cat costume everyday even though you knew it would likely provoke this reaction among other children? Or would you push to have that other child alter their behavior because it does not fit in with your worldview?
The temptation would have to be to have the other child punished for ridiculing your child, but that invalidates the “children should be able to make their own decisions without consequences” model. Doing that makes the assumption that your system is better than other’s and simultaneously shows your child that even though they made an unfortunate decision that had real world consequences, Mommy and Daddy will step in to take care of it. I would think that this would create a person dependant on others to handle difficult situations in life AKA societal liability.
Wouldn’t be easier to at least attempt to teach your child about the world around them as they grow, while protecting them from themselves as they do not have even the fully formed brain with which to make good decisions? Even in most courts of law a child cannot be held responsible for criminal behavior at the ages we are talking about because of that lack of development.
Quite the conundrum and I am not assuming you espouse this particular parenting philosophy, but you have taken ownership of it here which means you kind of have to defend it now.
I am merely defending a parent’s right to parent as they see fit [free of abuse or neglect, of course]. I’m not espousing that one is better than another. In fact, that is my criticism of Cassy’s original post–the automatic assumption that such parenting leads to raising derelicts is false. There is zero empirical evidence suggesting this to be the case. We have all sorts of empirical evidence showing divorce, drug & alcohol abuse, sexual abuse, neglect, emotional abuse, physical abuse, etc. leads to the raising of derelict children. To get riled up over a parenting philosophy [of all things] that stresses love and calm conflict resolution is inappropriate given all of the child rearing problems there are out there in the world.
Shawn, in your scenario, that should be a teachable moment for both children.
I think the negative reaction here has more to do with my comment raising the issue childless people having such strong reactions to parenting. I do understand that it strikes a nerve, but the reality is that parenting is hard for ANYbody. And any parent that sits there and says that their parenting experience is exactly as they thought it would be before they had children and that they’ve never had to employ methods that they never thought they would is either 1] lying or 2] an ignorant fool. And parents of multiple children know that what works for one does not always work for the other. All of these lessons are not learned, unfortunately, until one has crossed that threshold into parenthood and that is that.
“Properly executed consensual living is not for lazy parents. Much of it involves anticipating when one’s child is getting frustrated, angry, cranky, etc in order to PREVENT a situation from arising in the first place.”
Kids get cranky for a reason. What you’re doing is simply not letting the kid understand that there are parameters that they cannot break. This is why we have crazy teenagers. Here’s the deal: You have a lot of people who don’t know how to parent and they set no rules or regulations for these kids. They get away with everything because they have not been disciplined. Well, that’s great until they get to be teens. Now teens naturally rebel, but it’s at this time the parents try to start disciplining their kids. Guess what happens? The kids, who have no respect for their parents, now lash out and become even more out of control than they would be normally. You’re not PREVENTING anything. All you’re doing is postponing the inevitable.
“I have many friends who practice this type of parenting and it seems to work extremely well when done right. Kids learn good conflict resolution skills at a young age. Parents are extremely involved with their children in order to anticipate these moods and redirect the child.”
Well, good for you. I have relatives who practice this also and it’s an unqualified disaster. Kids do not learn good conflict resolution skills at a young age. What they do learn is how to manipulate and that gets even worse as the kid gets older, unless you nip it in the bud. The parents are “involved,” but only in the way how it conveniences them in the short term. For most of these parents, kids are more of a badge than a responsibility. They trot them out to show people what they’ve got, but they don’t really want to take care of them. So they invent a slew of ridiculous methods that go totally contrary to proper parenting. That’s narcissistic and self-centered. And yes, I’ve seen that happen as well.
“There will always be lazy parents, unfortunately, and they make excuses for their bad behavior. It seems consensual parenting has become bastardized by those lazy parents in order to “justify” their lack of parenting.”
It’s not bastardized because that’s what consensual parenting is. Lazy parenting. People don’t want to take the time to actually teach their kids values. So they try a “get rich quick” solution and try to cut corners. Sorry, but it doesn’t work that way. I don’t have kids, but I at least have sense to realize that parenting is a full-time job for 18 years out of an adults’ life (mom and dad).
“My point was merely that, on the grand scale of parenting ills, properly executed consensual parenting falls very very low.”
Nonsense because as I’ve (and many others on this post) have already pointed out, you’re not teaching the kid anything. No, it’s not abusing a kid, but you’re not teaching him/her to deal with situations in the real world. Life is sometimes painful. What you’ve come up with is a concept that takes away that basic fact. If you give everything to a kid everytime they ask for something, what are you really teaching them? Nothing, other than to be spoiled, narcissistic brats who have no conception of living like an adult.
“It certainly is undeserving of such an over-the-top reaction from a young, single, and childless person whose expertise is in political commentary.”
Oh please, Cassy or I have every right to comment on this. And the fact that you’re acting snooty about it more or less proves that you can’t really refute the argument.
“Furthermore, from a legal and political perspective, a parent’s right to raise their child as they see fit is conferred by the 14th amendment. I find it enormously ironic that a conservative blog dedicated, in parts, to the preservation of the constitutional rights such as the right to bear arms reacts to consensual parenting as if it were dangerous.”
Yes, unfortunately, you’re right about this. A parent has the right to raise their kid as they see fit. However the fact that there’s a plethora of idiot parents simply means that there will be more problems in the future. Personally, I think most adults should be sterilized so they cannot have kids, but that’s me…
“Absent abuse, who cares if people raise spoiled brats? I mean really, spoiling children is not a new concept, our perception of the state of being spoiled changes over time, but it’s certainly not new.”
Well, I care, actually. You want to know why? Because your idea teaches kids to become childish adults. A childish adult is more likely to want support from the government (GIVE ME IT, IT’S MINE!!!) The government then enacts a whole bunch of “neat” programs intended on keeping these people on the government dole. Guess who pays for those programs (anyone who pays taxes raise their hand)? Yes, spoiled kids have been around for a very long time. However, more than ever, spoiled kids who are not properly parented have more of an influence than ever before because government care is more widespread. It does have an impact.
“It was meant merely to raise the notion that the principles of consensual parenting are not necessarily bad and that when one becomes a parent, certain pre-conceived notions of what is right for one’s child go out the window.”
Pre-conceived is a notion that means that someone has never remotely experienced something. That’s far from what Cassy or myself has done. I cannot speak for Cassy, but I have been around many children in my extended family. You’re telling me that none of that matters? Nonsense. That’s a pretty arrogant idea.
“I am merely defending a parent’s right to parent as they see fit [free of abuse or neglect, of course]. I’m not espousing that one is better than another.”
No, your original argument was that non-parents had no say whatsoever in how kids should be raised (which means you’re better than the non-parents). We all have opinions based on life experiences. The vast majority just happen to agree with Cassy’s analysis, which I thought was spot-on.
“In fact, that is my criticism of Cassy’s original post–the automatic assumption that such parenting leads to raising derelicts is false. There is zero empirical evidence suggesting this to be the case. We have all sorts of empirical evidence showing divorce, drug & alcohol abuse, sexual abuse, neglect, emotional abuse, physical abuse, etc. leads to the raising of derelict children.”
Uh, if you’ve been paying attention to any of the other posters, there does seem to be considerable evidence that refutes your idea that consensual parenting is awesome…But we’re not discussing any of the other problems. Focus on the argument at hand.
“To get riled up over a parenting philosophy [of all things] that stresses love and calm conflict resolution is inappropriate given all of the child rearing problems there are out there in the world.”
I get riled up because I see a bunch of witless college kids who can’t think for themselves (yes, I work at a university). People who have no concept of critical thinking are generally the ones who have no self-reliance. The world isn’t always about “love” and calm conflict resolution. As I said before, sometimes life is pretty goddamn painful. All you’re doing is teaching a generation of kids to fall behind the rest of the world because I can assure you, the real world does not suffer fools gladly.
“I think the negative reaction here has more to do with my comment raising the issue childless people having such strong reactions to parenting.”
It’s probably because it was a pretty ignorant comment. Like I said in the previous post, it was pretty arrogant to presume those of us who don’t have kids have no idea whatsoever how to parent. Like I said before, I don’t want kids, but if I were to have them, I would know at least how NOT to parent them, based on my life experiences.
“I do understand that it strikes a nerve, but the reality is that parenting is hard for ANYbody. And any parent that sits there and says that their parenting experience is exactly as they thought it would be before they had children and that they’ve never had to employ methods that they never thought they would is either 1] lying or 2] an ignorant fool.”
Well, with all due respect, no shit. As I said before, parenting is a 24 hour job for at least 18 years. It’s thankless and often unappreciated. But it’s not about the parents’ convenience. It’s about the kid. How you raise your kid in the early stages pretty much guarantees how that kid will be an adult later on. I’m sorry, but I’m hardly ignorant and I’m certainly not a fool for refusing to employ a method that I’ve seen tried with my own eyes and seeing the ultimate consequences of failure.
“And parents of multiple children know that what works for one does not always work for the other. All of these lessons are not learned, unfortunately, until one has crossed that threshold into parenthood and that is that.”
Ok, so ultimately, you’re going to stick to your argument that whatever life experiences people have regarding children, it doesn’t compare to someone having a kid? Please. I’ve already picked apart your argument, so if the best you can come with is “that is that, so NYAH,” then you’re found wanting. Good luck with your kids, by the way. I’m sure I’ll be supporting them with my taxes in the future.
And parents of multiple children know that what works for one does not always work for the other. All of these lessons are not learned, unfortunately, until one has crossed that threshold into parenthood and that is that.”
Khaine says: Decent time reader, first time poster (I think)
Cassy – you are right.
TMQ – you are outta your friggin mind. I truly hope someone teaches your kids a little about the real world before it hits them.
For myself, I have a 13 yr old and a 1 yr old. Boundaries and consequences are two of the most important things a child needs to learn. This ‘no parents or children role’ is a formula for chaos.
Need to finish working (too bad I had stuff I wanted to write) – but hemmingway… keep it up Cassy!
I always let my children do whatever they want so they can learn to make their own decisions. So for example, when my three-year-old said he wanted to play in the middle of the interstate, I advised him that this might be dangerous, but he decided to do it anyway. Since being hit by the truck he has now come to understand why this was not a good place to play. Now, he rarely plays outside of the rehab clinic playroom. But he has made the decision on his own.
When my ten-year-old decided to drop out of school, I explained that this could make it difficult to get a job when he grows up. But he replied that he plans to become a rock star and be a millionaire. Ten years later he’s not a rock star, but he does play his guitar on the sidewalk with a can for any passers-by to leave him drug money.
My thirteen-year-old explained that she was deeply, deeply in love with her boyfriend and she was ready for a sexual relationship. I pointed out that she had only known him for three days, but it’s not my place to judge her feelings. Today she lives in government housing with her six children by six different men. But she was able to express herself in her own way.
Fortunately none of the above is true, because I’m not that stupid. In real life, I want my children to learn to make their own decisions, so I let them do what they want as they demonstrate the maturity to make good decisions, and when the consequences of a bad decision are tolerable.
Billy says: brastrap
Billy says: bra strap
Billy says: bra strap bra strap fap
I fap to the brastrap
bra strap bra strap fap
haiku for you
Oh Golly, TMQ, so it’s “A Parent Thing and You Wouldn’t Understand?” Do you, perhaps also have a T-shirt with that motto on it?
Bullshit. Common sense makes one able to understand, whether one is a parent or not. Observation skills and life experience, anyone, you especially, TMQ?
Consensual parenting is depraved crap, especially since it will unload disfunctional adults on the rest of us when these kids reach adult age (notice I didn’t say “when they grow up”).
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Melinda P says: Apparently, the people who follow this type of parenting have never heard that children WANT boundaries! They actually feel safer when there are rules and regulations in place.
TMQ – here’s my idea. You parent your children consensually, and I’ll parent mine, (6 and 3) the “Cassy Fiano” way. Let’s see where they all are in 25 years! I bet my kids have stable jobs, work hard, provide for their families, and have become productive members of society who do not expect everyone to cater to their whims. Where will your kids be?
i take issue with those who claim that if you are not a parent, you have no right to have an opinion on this.
to be completely honest (as evidenced by the subject matter of this post), it really seems that some people who are parents should never have been allowed to bear or father children due to their complete lack of wisdom. and it is the ultimate in elitism to suggest that.
but God is no respecter of persons and gives gifts equally to all. don’t go thinking you are more special than another person cause you produced a child and they didn’t. ALSO it is a free country (still) and would it not be HORRIBLE to live under conditions like China where births are restricted?
anyways children are incredible gifts indeed – and the recipients (parents) are indeed responsible for the ultimate disposition of the life(s) they are bestowed with so graciously.
sad and shameful to know that some are so brainwashed, but is anyone really surprised?
20 years from now i predict many of these indulgently raised children who become selfish adults will be getting their asses literally kicked by the members of the previous generation who are just tired of being disrespected…
olanna says: I think this is the very way my wife in law in raising the step kids. They are the biggest brats ever, without a sense of remorse for anything they do.
I sure hope this stupid idea doesn’t catch on.
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